When does an altered pattern become your own?

[MrsM]

(Note: I originally posted this in the design forum, but it doesn't look like I'm gonna be getting any responses, so I'm moving it here)

 

 

I've started off using a pattern, but then end up changing it into something different (sometimes completely different!), and I'm wondering at what point the pattern becomes "mine" so I can share it with others.

 

I would assume that changing an edging, or making an item with or without something "extra" (ie: beads) does NOT make it mine.

 

However, I took a shawl pattern (from the Oct/Nov Crochet Today) and ended up only making one "panel", made a tie and morphed it into a corset belt kinda thing (the shawl was a little too short, and I was running out of time to finish it as it is a gift.

 

You can find a picture of the original shawl pattern here: http://www.crochettoday.com/articlep...x?articleid=38

 

and my belt here: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a32...ochet/Belt.jpg

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any professional or unprofessional advice about this because a lot of my ideas are mixtures of various things I've gotten from other patterns, at least at this point in my creative "career".

 

Thanks!

 

[snugsmontreal]

thats a hard once, since you did use the pattern just not to its full extent. maybe someone else will have more insight, sorry

[MrsM]

And for things like beanies...there's only so many ways you can make them as far as stitch patterns are concerned, KWIM? I was having issues finding a pattern or method that worked for me and I ended up mixing a friend's method with the "Secret Method" up on the current issue at Crochetme.com.

[Starr]

I saw something about this somewhere on here, I just don't remember where, but I know that yarn-a-holic (our admin) has copyright Q&A somewhere too.

She would be the best person to ask.

[JCB]

I think that your belt sort of falls into the category of 'inspired by'. In other words, you saw the pattern of the shawl and used that as an inspiration for your belt. It actually uses a relatively common stitch (which I don't know the name of), but it's sort of a netting effect.

 

A year ago, I had just joined C'ville and didn't know that much about crochet patterns (I never used to use patterns). Anyway, someone had posted a picture of a hat. I loved the color combination she used, and used that inspiration to make a scarf. When I posted a picture of my scarf I did say I was inspired by her hat. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that type of thing, as long as you acknowledge credit.

 

Joan

[darski]

I think many of us work from "Inspired by" and "derivative of".

 

I have a creative mind but not an original mind. Most often, I take what someone else has done and create something that is different but still related.

 

Is a BICI a new thing or just a variation on a BICO theme as someone said - I believe it is just a variation on a theme and credit goes to the original designer.

[Katchkan]

I think the key here is the fact that you used her pattern. You are now using the finished piece in an altenate way, but it is still from her pattern.

That is like making a scarf and wearing it as a belt. It's still the same, just a different use. Tricky question, Where do we draw the line of inspired. I know in my heart of hearts I could not claim this as my own. Your idea is great. You have the idea to do something nice. Just do it so you feel good about it and never have to worry about someone making claims against you. I would pick up hook and yarn and with out ever refering to her's create something that was truly mine.

[monael]

Yeah, if you use the pattern as a basis for it, I would think it would not be ok to post the "pattern" you "made". However, if you feel like sharing it, I think it would be ok to post what you did to make it different, without posting the actual pattern, to share if someone liked it and wanted to know what you did.

[craftconnie1]

I think it only really matters if you were trying to sell your pattern and only you know it you were inspired or 'stole' the pattern. You cannot copyright stitches or color combinations. the written pattern is the copyright part you must be concerned about. you can make a mouse pattern for instance you can give him red shorts and yellow shoes but you cannot name him M****Y, or use the word D****Y .

[darski]

With current thinking on intellectual property - it is not necessary to be selling something as your own to be in violation. Granted people generally only go to litigation when actual money is involved but that is not the legal standing

 

Any claim that you created something that was clearly created by someone else before you and especially where you know of that creation is a violation of copyright.

[craftybutterfly]

I've learned to stay out of these conversations. Pattern Copyright = too many gray areas and too many interpretations. Ask 50 different people and you'll get 30 different answers.

[Auntie Kellie]

I was concerned about this recently and asked Yarnaholic about it. She suggested the best thing to do is contact the Publishers and the pattern designer if you can and find out if it is in copyright violation. I couldn't find a way to contact the woman who designed the pattern I wanted to alter into a shawl and sweater (still gotta find time to make that thing) but the publishers were quick to respond to me.

 

It is very difficult to copyright a pattern stitch. If you were using

the

pattern stitch to make a similar project (afghan), that would be an

infringement. Since you are making something other than an afghan,

this is

not an infringement.

 

This is a direct quote from the letter they sent to me in regards to using a pattern stitch to make something inspired by an afghan I made. Each company probably has different ideas on what is an infringment and what isn't so it is best to talk to them first before making an inspired pattern available to the public. I hope this helps.

 

Hugs and Cookies

Auntie K

[monael]

A pattern stitch yes. However I took the OP to mean more than just the pattern stitch. I guess what it boils down to for me is how much of the original pattern is incorporated into what you made and what you are going to do with it after you make it. If it is for personal use, then I don't even think it is an issue. But to sell the pattern or to sell the items made from it if it is against the copyright (some designers give permission to sell finished items) -to me- is clearly a violation. But again, if you are talking about using the first 3 rounds of a circle (which is a pretty common technique), then that is another thing. It is a tricky issue.

[Amy]

For a true answer to this question, you will have to consult either the owner of the copyrighted pattern in question (could be the designer, could be the publisher) or an attorney who specializes in the field of intellectual property.

 

No matter what the opinions of anyone posting on this thread, please do not rely on that as actual legal advice. Even if an attorney popped in to voice an opinion, you can't count on that to hold up in a court of law, should the original copyright holder decide to take action against you.

 

Now, if you have concerns over whether such a pattern could be posted here at Crochetville in accordance with our guidelines (which although based on copyright law are totally separate from and have no legal connection to copyright law), feel free to send me a PM with all the details. I would then review the info and decide if it met with our guidelines.

 

It might, it might not. Sometimes we might be what some would consider a little too stringent with things we don't allow here, but that's because we are not intellectual property attorneys, so we much prefer to err a little too far on the side of caution to protect Crochetville.

[Amy]

Oh, I forgot to add that, while it may yield some interesting discussion, asking this type of question here is really sort of pointless, as it will not yield you a definitive legal answer. If what you're interested in is the intellectual discourse, then feel free to post the question, because it's not a banned topic. You just have to realize you won't get a solid answer to your question.

[MrsM]

Yarnaholic, thanks for your input! My intention was to simply have a discussion as I'm fully aware that I can't rely on what someone says on the internet when it's a matter of law. I should have clarified that in my original post. I'm totally new to this whole thing as its only come up recently since I got back into crocheting, and was more or less simply curious.

 

I originally intended my project (the shawl-turned-belt) to be the shawl, but had to make some changes due to my circumstances. I could just as easily create a completely new pattern using the belt idea, so it's not a huge deal to me. Also, in this case, I certainly wouldn't take all the credit for it! If I were to post the pattern on my blog (or here if it were acceptable), I'd reference the original pattern as the inspiration.

 

Auntie K, thank you for posting the response you got...that gives me a better idea of what's acceptable and what's not. What was it that you were going to alter (ie: the original pattern)?

[Amy]

Please let me know before posting it here so I can see if it is acceptable within our guidelines.

 

And if we can't let it be posted here because of our guidelines, those same guidelines would mean we also won't be able to allow any links to it, either, should you choose to post it on your blog. In that case, you'd need to remove any links to your blog that occur here that result in such a pattern being brought up.

 

Of course, this is all theoretical discussion at this point in time, since I haven't seen either the original pattern or your end pattern.

[MrsM]

Ok, that's weird! I had a whole response typed out and I thought I posted it!

 

Anyway, what I meant by "if acceptable" was if you approve it. I totally understand the need for Crochetville to protect itself from copyright liabilities (I'm an Insurance Agent), and I respect that.

 

I probably won't post it (here or on my blog), and if I do, I'm thinking I'll just reference the pattern and mention what I did differently.

[needlesandpinza]

I believe you can say the concept of the belt is yours but you MUST add that you were inspired by such and such pattern. but I do know stitches (sc, dc, etc) known stitches can not be copyrighted, what can be is how they are put together and used.

its a very very very very thin line to walk on. so if ever in doubt just ask the designer that inspired you or at least acknowledge them.

[Auntie Kellie]

I originally intended my project (the shawl-turned-belt) to be the shawl, but had to make some changes due to my circumstances. I could just as easily create a completely new pattern using the belt idea, so it's not a huge deal to me. Also, in this case, I certainly wouldn't take all the credit for it! If I were to post the pattern on my blog (or here if it were acceptable), I'd reference the original pattern as the inspiration.

 

Auntie K, thank you for posting the response you got...that gives me a better idea of what's acceptable and what's not. What was it that you were going to alter (ie: the original pattern)?

 

I had made an afghan for my eldest daughter and I loved both the pattern of the stripes and the pattern stitches that I wanted to alter the pattern into a shawl and sweater set. I contacted Leisure Arts Copyright team to see if I would be allowed to post the pattern for the shawl and sweater on a blog. As long as the pattern I post isn't including the stripes I used on my shawl (the stripes I used are identical to the afghan because I liked it), I have permission to post them. Although I've been thinking of submitting them to Leisure Arts after I get around to doing the sweater. As I said earlier though, different publishers may have different interpretations on what may be a copyright infringement so check with the original publishers first.

 

Hugs and Cookies

Auntie K

[MrsM]

Thank you. I'll definitely check into things with the companies/designers before I go ahead with it.

[Sylvia Lee]

I don't know about crochet patterns. But I have heard that with food recipes, all you have to do to make a recipe your own is to alter an ingredient or two. Who knows whether my source is reliable or not, but it seems to make sense to me. Even patented products can be copied, as long as the imitation product has something noticeably different about it.

[Amy]

Just as a general FYI, patent law is completely different from and separate from copyright law. What applies to patents may or may not apply to copyrights.

 

And actually, to the best of my understanding, the ingredients in a recipe cannot be copyrighted. What is copyrighted is the written description of how you put those ingredients together and create the dish. If I'm wrong, I hope an intellectual property attorney will correct that statement.

[MrsM]

We should find an intellectual property attorney who crochets so they can come give us advice

[Amy]

We should find an intellectual property attorney who crochets so they can come give us advice

 

That would be great, but I doubt they'd give official legal advice for free here on the forum! I actually don't blame any intellectual property attorneys who might be here from identifying themselves as such. I'm sure they'd be hit up for free "advice" all the time, which would pretty much ruin any personal enjoyment they could find here. Can you imagine getting questions from nearly 10,000 Crochetville members? LOL