Is it an original pattern?

[crochet smartcat]

I had an idea for a pattern using parts of several different patterns. None of it would be my own actual design, I would just be taking pieces from other patterns and putting them together in a new and fun way. Would this qualify as an original pattern or should I give credit where the credit is due. I don't want to slight anyone or make anyone upset, but it is still a really cool idea. I will do it for myself, but wanted to be able to post it and maybe sell it.

[crochetchronicles]

I agree with Elizabeth.

 

I have used motifs from other patterns to make up a new item. But, I would never claim this is an original. Yes, it does take work to do the adapting. But, the motif itself is someone else's work.

 

If I really wanted to write up the pattern I would go to the publisher or designer and ask their permission.

 

I'm really cautious in this area. I think it is a matter of respecting other people's work.

[sewcrochet4fun]

I think another similarity to compare to the discussion is the "schematics of the shrug" very nicely explained by Mrs Who in the Original Patterns thread.

 

She outlined a basic method of how to measure so you can 'create your own".

 

I made one using HDC and a lacy DC look for the body and then DC shells for the ruffle.

Chelle made hers different from mine and used her "signature" shell stitch to finish hers...I say signature cuz (almost) every patterns she writes that uses shells she gives this ending stitch too.

Another lady made one also different...and one other lady again, made one very different and using chains for the ruffles.

 

Although we all used the same designing method, our final creations were all different and therfore, we could all call ours originals, write the patterns and hold the copyrights.

 

Just like making a cake...we all know we need the basics but it how we measure them, the extra ingredients added, etc that make it our own.

[diamond]

For one thing, for two people to make the exact same thing at the exact same time, type it up, copyright it, publish it all at the same time is very odd. But say it did happen. Then, the one who copyrights it and publishes it first would have the law on their side. But the odds of that happening would have to be astronomical!

 

I designed and published my Epiphany Bag not know that at the same exact time AJ's Wrist Bag was being designed & published. Now, granted, one is a small wrist bag and the other a larger shoulder bag, but the concept of the bags and straps are very close. We both were able to copyright our bags because of the differences but the similarities had me wondering about copyright laws at that time. So I had to do my research.

[LadyyOftheOak]

so does it come down to whoever copyrights an idea first? Understand I'm not talking about using a pattern and making a design and claiming it's my original design, I'm talking about 2 people coming up with the same idea for a design at about the same time.. one copyrights it and one doesn't.. is the one that doesn't copyright this in the wrong for making it even if they have no idea someone else has?

 

I know the pattern would be copyrighted, but the basic design.. whether it's a shell dishcloth, a watermelon fridge magnet or a granny square afghan.. would be very hard to copyright the design? the pattern telling someone how to make it yes if the pattern was followed exaclty and to the letter.. but how do you copyright a design like that that is so common that everyone makes it already?

[diamond]

It is simple. They would be infringing on your copyright if they took your DESIGN and claimed it as their own even if they made it slightly bigger. It's not the stitches that are in question but the design itself. And as long as you have that little c in a circle © with the date and/or your name next to the design name, then it is legally your design & protected under copyright laws. Ignore the stitches, they are just a tool to make the design. The design is what is important.

 

Another thing to look at; a square or circle, no matter how big or small is still a motif! It doesn't have to be a flower, star, fridgie, etc. A motif is just a piece of work that when, made enough of, joined together create a larger piece of work.

[LadyyOftheOak]

They would have to be using your pattern exactly or a variation thereof. For example. Say your dishcloth starts with ch-36, then you have 20 shell stitches across the first row and each row thereafter. You put a basic sc around it for edging. That is your original design. (this is all example and not a given pattern, I'm going off the top of my head here). Now I see your pattern and love it but I want to make it my own. So I ch-38 instead of 36 and have 22 shells across on each row. That is not my own design. I have used a variation of your pattern therefore cannot claim copyright laws to my pattern. I must state that the pattern I made is a variation of your pattern. Did that make sense and what you are referring to? It's what I understand the copyright laws mean.

 

Yes in a nutshell lol.. I guess what I'm wondering is .. say that scenario right there.. if someone actually did copyright that pattern could they then claim infringement against anyone that came up with the same sort of idea especially if the only thing different was the actual size of the dischcloth (those 20 shells vs 22 shells)? and if so.. HOW? Since it's so basic a stitch?

 

I'm starting to think this is way simpler than people are making it out to be.. it would be nearly impossible, unless it was a very definite design like a motif or like some of the beauties that Kristina does , to prove that someone used your pattern when it was something as simple as a granny square afghan, a pineapple stitch edging, or a crocheted rose. Are we making more of this than needs to be worried about? Truth be known very little out there today is "original" unless it's something definitely a "motif".. but everything else is pretty much been done for ages..

[Aggie May]

Original or not.

I say, "Go for it" there is a good chance that the patterns you are taking your ideas from are taken from somewhere else anyway. Just dont say that no-one else can copy any part of your ideas. I think it is very flattering when some-one likes what you do, enough to want to copy.

How do you think Lionbrand were able to make up the Martha Poncho Pattern and call it their own? I made that same Poncho idea (without a pattern) for years back in the 70s & 80s so nothing is new under the sun.

 

About 35 yrs ago, I "invented" a hat design which I had only ever seen once, in a shop, (made overseas) but did not ever pick it up and examine it.

I went home and worked out, in my head, how to make it and from then on made hundreds of them. I did not ever write out the pattern but showed other people how to make them so they popped up all over the place.

I had a wool shop soon after so made them for customers in all sorts of yarn.

Last week I was looking through some very old pattern books and there was a hat pattern, not exactly the same but very similar. I had not copied that and they had not copied me. I think you call it "syncronicity."

My version is firmly planted in my head so I could ,with a clear concience, write out that pattern and call it my own.

The hat I am talking about is made in either TRs or DTRs (Your DC & TR I think) in a flat beret style but with a layer of 5CH loops which sit over the top and create a double layer.

They look really great and are very snug to wear so if anyone would like the pattern, I could have a go at writing it down and getting it tested.

Have fun.

Colleen.

[diamond]

They would have to be using your pattern exactly or a variation thereof. For example. Say your dishcloth starts with ch-36, then you have 20 shell stitches across the first row and each row thereafter. You put a basic sc around it for edging. That is your original design. (this is all example and not a given pattern, I'm going off the top of my head here). Now I see your pattern and love it but I want to make it my own. So I ch-38 instead of 36 and have 22 shells across on each row. That is not my own design. I have used a variation of your pattern therefore cannot claim copyright laws to my pattern. I must state that the pattern I made is a variation of your pattern. Did that make sense and what you are referring to? It's what I understand the copyright laws mean.

[LadyyOftheOak]

So if I wrote down a pattern for a shell stitch dishcloth for instance, and someone came along, looked at the picture and made the same thing it wouldn't be copyright infringement unless they were using my pattern exactly?

[Donna]

That is the point I was asking in my post / thread regarding this. So many of these stitches and stitch combinations are just so basic that you can't help but copy them.. in which case is it original? or is it a copied work.. nevermind people been using that combinations for years and years and years and years?

Stitches and stitch combinations are different from patterns. You could use a shell stitch for a million things... a square, a poncho, a skirt, a dishcloth, and on and on. It is the actual conceiveing and writing of the pattern on your own that makes it an original.

[LadyyOftheOak]

 

What if you try to make your own original design, but discover later that there is another pattern out there like the one you created? The truth is that it's VERY hard to prove that someone copied your design. A person would have to take both patterns and go over the instructions step-by-step and see if it looks like it was copied. Like I said, it would be very hard to prove that was done. Some designs are very unique and it would be obvious, but some are pretty basic. It would be easy to accidently make a pattern that is close to another.

 

What about motifs or stitches? Some motifs and stitches have been around so long that it's would be impossible to find the original owner. I usually make my own motifs, BUT there are some flowers that you can't make them any other way. Use them with an original design and I think that you would be ok. Most people can judge for themselves if they are doing it right or stepping over the line.

 

 

That is the point I was asking in my post / thread regarding this. So many of these stitches and stitch combinations are just so basic that you can't help but copy them.. in which case is it original? or is it a copied work.. nevermind people been using that combinations for years and years and years and years?

[mimicat]

I agree with what's being said here. I have to do the project with a clear conscience. I have about several hundred pattern books, magazines and such that I go through for inspiration. I find some detail I like in several different patterns, blend them all together and come up with my own design. OR, I just look at them to give me inspiration and get my creative juices flowing. Once the project is finished and looks nothing like anyone elses designs then I'm home free. Most of the time, I don't even look at the pattern, but mostly at the photos...

 

I agree with what Kristina said and I have a specific example to cite on this. I recently came up with I would like to claim as "my own" hat pattern for my sister after searching the free patterns on the web. I picked on two patterns, both with earflaps, read both directions, studied them for a while and came up with my own design. First of all, I used a different yarn and different size of crochet hook. I copied the first 6 rows of the winter hat pattern and found that the hat was still small, because my yarn is less bulky. I continued to make the hat from there on my own. Then I looked at the "spikes" of the chullo hat and decided to make something like that (but not exactly the same), and I called it a long sc. Anyway, from there I was really on my own and I came up with the earflaps and ties sort of freeform style. I published the pattern together with my own picture and know that it is my original design. However, I think it is better to mention the specific patterns that I copied some parts of, so I edited my post. Here's the link if you want to look. Thanks for reading!

[kazily]

I agree now that I have more info. Since the motif is used throughtout most of the pattern, I would feel the motif is the major part of the pattern & the motif belongs to the author of that pattern. I would either change the motif to your own design or make the poncho & link to the motif creator.

[klouised]

I have to agree with that. If I were you, I would change the motif design. It's a wonderful challenge. You say that the poncho design is a basic, so then design it yourself without help. Using basic stitches and basic groups of stitches is not (in my humble opinion) copying. What I mean by basic is... 2 dcs, 2 chs, 2 dcs, so on. The shell stitch is another. How can that be copied? What about the pinapple design? Someone, sometime, came up with that. I understand what it's like to be on the other end with someone having copied my design. I had it done, and let me tell you it hurts! I also made a skirt, one time, that some of it came from a curtain pattern. I would never publish that pattern, because it's not mine.

 

Kristina

 

http://kristinaskrochet.50webs.com

[creativegoodness]

Ok, I made a hat for my daughter, Megan. The first part of the hat I did on my own. But the 2nd half, I made to match the poncho that came from someone's design. So, the last half and the edging are from her pattern. I posted how I did it on my blog, but I wouldn't think of saying it is my "original" pattern. I asked her if I could link to her sight pointing where I got the last rows and edging from. That way I could give her the credit she deserved.

I think if I were you, I would do that. Make your item, write up how you did it, but put a link to the motif, and say that you used that. Unless you want to try and make up your own motif that would fit what you are trying to do, I wouldn't call it your original pattern. That way, the person gets her credit for her work, and you will get yours.

That is just my . I know that I would want to be given credit for what I did, you know? If it was a stitch or something, some people say that is different, but you are talking about a motif that someone else has designed. No matter if you take it and use it in a different way, it is still her motif. Just like the rest of the work would be your idea, even if someone took it and used it differently.

Ok, maybe that was like 4 cents....lol..

[threeolivemartini]

i am going to throw my two cents in for what they are worth..

 

when i design.. it comes completely from my head.. i dont "cannibalize" patterns.. at the risk sounding controversial.. I think if you took ideas from others.. and made a pattern then no its not yours.. because you took other peoples work and added to it..

 

I am a purist.. I would never post a pattern that wasnt all my idea.. and all my work .. I think if you have questions.. or are iffy about it.. then you cant call it original..

 

that is just how i feel about it.. not the law or anything.. just how i personally feel about it.. its just like me taking a picture and making a garment.. that isnt my original idea.. so I dont feel right in writing the pattern and posting it as mine..

 

you have to do what you think is right in your heart sometimes.. and i just dont think something like that can be called "original" ..

 

if you wanted to share what you did.. you could say this is what i did to make this.. but i wouldnt claim it as an "original" pattern..

[crochet smartcat]

I don't want to be super specific, cause I think it is a super good idea and I want to be the one to do it, but here is the gist. I would be taking a motif from one pattern and then incorporating it into a poncho design. I would have to dramatically change the joining section of the poncho pattern, however the neckline and bottom portions of the poncho would remain more or less unchanged. I know I could alter the neckline some, however the rest of the poncho is I believe just a standard type of stitch. I would probably use her instructions for sizing the poncho but alot of that is just common sense too. Maybe if I work the original poncho and then wing my pattern, is it mine as long as I am not reading and following her pattern in the creation of mine?

[kazily]

ok so wouldn't it be an original pattern/design if she takes this & that from 3 or 4 patterns & combines them to make something unlike each individual pattern? I am only guessing since she doesn't say how different it is but she's very excited so I assume it is different from each original pattern. JMo I guess- but if it is an original idea--that just incorporates a few parts of other patterns--sounds like an original idea to me. Maybe the OP can be more specific & get more accurate opinions from readers?

[klouised]

Right

 

Kristina

http://kristinaskrochet.50webs.com

[sjkmaurice]

Kazily - I think what the other ladies are talking about is if you crocheted a bag from a pattern and then added your own flower, it's not an original design. If you make an original design and then add a crocheted flower from a pattern you found, I think it's still your original design.

[kazily]

Once the project is finished and looks nothing like anyone elses designs

 

I think that makes a great point about weather a pattern is original or not. Like the flowers example, if I crocheted an original bag but added a flower found from the net---is the total bag pattern not mine?

[klouised]

I agree with what's being said here. I have to do the project with a clear conscience. I have about several hundred pattern books, magazines and such that I go through for inspiration. I find some detail I like in several different patterns, blend them all together and come up with my own design. OR, I just look at them to give me inspiration and get my creative juices flowing. Once the project is finished and looks nothing like anyone elses designs then I'm home free. Most of the time, I don't even look at the pattern, but mostly at the photos.

 

What if you try to make your own original design, but discover later that there is another pattern out there like the one you created? The truth is that it's VERY hard to prove that someone copied your design. A person would have to take both patterns and go over the instructions step-by-step and see if it looks like it was copied. Like I said, it would be very hard to prove that was done. Some designs are very unique and it would be obvious, but some are pretty basic. It would be easy to accidently make a pattern that is close to another.

 

What about motifs or stitches? Some motifs and stitches have been around so long that it's would be impossible to find the original owner. I usually make my own motifs, BUT there are some flowers that you can't make them any other way. Use them with an original design and I think that you would be ok. Most people can judge for themselves if they are doing it right or stepping over the line.

 

Kristina

http://kristinaskrochet.50webs.com

[diamond]

For instance if you took a bag pattern and made it the same but changed the handles or a pocket that is just embelishing in my opinion. The CORE idea was still the same.

 

hope I havent stepped on toes or been to blunt but you asked!!! :blush !!!

 

marlo

http://www.marloscrochetcorner.com

Marlo, I totally agree with you in this respect. If you are just making minor changes to a pattern, then no, it's not your own. But if you see a pattern and think "Wow, I bet I can make that differently by changing the stitch pattern, altering the overall look, make it longer, shorter, less open, more open, etc" then I would think the jest of the pattern is yours. The pattern/photo that gave you the idea isn't yours.....but if you change the pattern more than 80%, I would think it's yours. So, Tandy, you have to ask yourself "Is this design 80% mine? Or is it another pattern that I changed slightly?"

[crochetfun]

I have a specific question, if a bit redundant, since I have no plans to sell my crochet patterns or work:

 

Say, I like a certain motif, e.g. a coaster. I make several, join them to form a scarf, design a matching hat.

Suppose people ask me for a pattern: do I refer to the original pattern, and detail my own "add-ons" or do I just present it as my own?

[crochet smartcat]

Marlo,

 

 

Please don't feel bad, I really want to know, because I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I really want everyone's honest opinion, because I don't want to post something as my pattern if it isn't really. I was kind of leaning toward, it isn't really my pattern, but then if I post it and everyone says "Oh you should sell that, its soo cute" I don't want to be in the wrong.

 

Tandy