Vent sent to Stitches South

[Amy]

Susan, of the crochet patterns that Fiesta does offer, are any of the actual designs of interest to you? If so, how likely are you to actually buy the Fiesta yarn needed to make the pattern?

If the designs they have available are not of interest, what type of designs would you like to see them offer for their yarns?

[Amy]

Red Heart is an interesting position in that the majority of their customers are actually crocheters. That is why they are able to offer so many crochet patterns.

[craftyone]

Susan, of the crochet patterns that Fiesta does offer, are any of the actual designs of interest to you? If so, how likely are you to actually buy the Fiesta yarn needed to make the pattern?

 

If the designs they have available are not of interest, what type of designs would you like to see them offer for their yarns?

Most of the dozen designs they offer in crochet are not my taste, and the yarns are too expensive to consider making to sell- at least in my neighborhood. The one pattern I would consider making was the Garden Party Jacket, but since it calls for 6 skeins@ $33.95 each and the pattern is $7.99 I won't be making it unless I win the Lottery. It would cost over $200. If the yarn is that expensive I would rather see projects that would only need a skein to complete.

[papersmiles]

Thanks so much Amy and Kathy.  I am getting a much better understanding (I think) of what this is asking for.  I will give this matter some serious thought and do some research before I post answers to your questions and perhaps offer an opinion or two...smiling.  I believe this is an important topic for crocheters if indeed you want to see our craft expanded and appreciated by yarn makers and sellers everywhere.  

 

Again, thanks for taking the time to help clear up my questions.  

Barbara 

[Amy]

Susan, thanks for answering. So Fiesta is basically a company whose yarns you aren't going to buy very often if at all, no matter what type of patterns they make available. Other crocheters may feel the same way.

The Fiesta booth does a lot of business at STITCHES, so knitters are obviously buying their yarns.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that about 95% or more of their customers are knitters. Actually, I just took a quick look at projects made with Fiesta yarns in Ravelry's database. For any yarn, only 2-4% of projects are crocheted. I didn't check to see how many of those projects used Fiesta's patterns vs patterns from another source. But with this small a customer base of crocheters, it's really not surprising they don't have more crochet patterns available. I wouldn't expect them to create many more crochet patterns until more crocheters start using their yarns and current customers begin asking for more patterns.
 

[Amy]

Barbara, I'd love to hear your opinions if and when you're ready to share them.

If crocheters, as a group, want to ask the yarn store companies to make more patterns, hooks, and tools available for us, then we have to be prepared to actually buy those products.

We can't ask companies to make stuff for us just so we can feel validated and included in some non-existent "fiber club."  I've spoken personally with enough people and seen enough of what people post various places on the internet, that I think there are more than a few crocheters who are like this. They want the stuff to be available, even though they never intend on purchasing any of it.

 

I don't think it's fair for this group of people to chime in with their opinions/demands that the companies make MORE available for crocheters.Or if they want to voice their opinions, they should be clear that they're just showing support for the crocheters who would purchase those items, while making it clear that they themselves aren't really a potential customer of those companies.

We all have to pick and choose where we spend our money. There is nothing wrong with not being able to purchase products from yarn store companies or even preferring to purchase your products in craft or discount stores. There IS something wrong in misleading them into thinking they have a much larger pool of potential customers than they really do.

 

I think it's time for crocheters to be really honest with themselves and crochet-related businesses about whether they really are going to purchase the items they so vocally and insistently say they want.

I also think the crocheters who will purchase more if more is made available should continue to talk about what they would like to have available, then follow through with purchases.

[craftyone]

I would use some special yarns for special projects for myself or for a gift- up to about $15 a skein. Since I sell the majority of what I make in my shop I need to use less expensive yarns since my customers aren't willing/able to pay the prices I would need to charge to use more expensive yarns. I have to wonder why knitters seem to be willing to pay higher prices for yarn than crocheters. I don't knit- does knitting use less yarn than crochet? Or do knitters just have more money available to spend on yarns........

[Sylviaf]

I checked my current yarn stash and discovered I have yarns from Berroco, Takhi, Ironstone and Sirdar. as well as a few skens of Batika. Berroco (my favorite) actually has some crochet patterns on their site. I pretty much loved all of their scarves and shawls. I also own a book of patterns for Comfort yarns that has both knit and crochet. They do pretty well, although the balance of knit to crochet is very uneven. I typed "crochet patterns" into the search bar at Takhi and one pattern showed up. This may be a website issue, since I know I have seen crochet in some of their booklets at yarn stores. I couldn't even find a site for Ironstone and Sirdar had nothing. I still think if yarn companies want our business they should court us and they just don't. I have to assume that knitters are giving them all the business they need. If you look at the craft store yarns, they actually make an effort. I buy cheap yarns and expensive yarns, but I still don't need to pay to attend expos for the privilege of looking at projects I will never make.(As I said earlier, I usually attend with my daughter as a social event.) I don't think we crocheters are inherently cheaper than knitters or, for that matter, poorer. I do think we often feel like the poor relations. I have never been treated rudely in yarn stores, but I have frequently been met with bemusement. One shop owner told me that the only thing that even tempted her to want to crochet was some beautiful wooden crochet hooks she had gotten in (they tempted me too and I now own them---I even saved them after our house fire and, after many coats of lemon oil, still use them).  I like the idea of actually checking the yarn companies' sites; I had forgotten how many pretty things I could find from Berroco, for example. I will have to look for some of the others, too.

[Amy]

Stacy Charles, owner of Tahki, is actually quite supportive of crochet. He knows that the vast majority of customers who buy his yarns are knitters, and not crocheters. However, is very supportive of providing yarn support to designers for patterns that will appear in books and Interweave Crochet. I had the great fortune to meet and talk with him in person at TNNA this past summer.

What I found interesting is that he says crocheters want projects that take no more than one ball of his expensive yarns. The knitters don't seem to care how many balls a project will take. If they like it, they buy.

If you speak with people from the craft yarn companies, you'll find that their customers are either equally split crocheters/knitters or they have more crocheters than knitters.

If you speak with people from the yarn store companies, their customers are 90+% knitters.

When I've asked questions on Crochetville's Facebook page about what the fans consider their "dream yarn" that they'd love to use if money were not an issue, many people respond with craft store yarns that are more expensive than Super Saver. Are those really their dream yarns or do they just not know about the really dreamy yarns that are out there, such as qiviut, cashmere, silk, microfiber ribbon, rayons, and more?

However, when I've mentioned the price of certain yarn store yarns on the Facebook page, even prices that are actually very reasonable, I get a lot of responses that people think those prices are just too expensive and they won't or can't pay those prices.

So is it also that a large group of crocheters just aren't interested in paying the price of yarn store yarns? If this is so, why?

The latest industry surveys show that there are more crocheters than knitters, yet the vast majority of yarn store customers are knitters. Why is that? I don't believe it's because there's a lack of crochet patterns for yarn store yarns. There are plenty of them available: from the yarn companies, from indie designers, from books, from magazines. If you want to use a yarn store yarn, you can fairly easily find a pattern suitable for the yarn. If you have a pattern, you can also fairly easily find a yarn store yarn that would be suitable. So I don't think the problem can be defined as a lack of crochet patterns.

So why aren't crocheters buying from the yarn stores? Is it really that crocheting appeals to a totally different demographic, on whole, than knitting does? Does crochet appeal to those who have less money to spend or just those who are more frugal even if they have lots of money? Does knitting appeal to those who have more disposable income to spend? Are knitters willing to spend more money per project because their projects take them significantly more time to create, so they can spend more per project since they're making fewer projects per year?

I don't know the answers. I'm not even sure I know the right questions. But it's certainly interesting to think about and talk about the possibilities.

 

The only thing I do know is that if crocheters want more things to be available to them in yarn stores and at knit/crochet shows, crocheters have to start buying more of what is available. It's like anything in retail, it's all driven by demand. The more we buy, the more they'll make for us to buy.

[Amy]

An example: Crochetville's upcoming 10th anniversary retreat. I have people on the Facebook page begging me to hold one in many other areas of the country, just as I had a very large number of people begging me to hold this one in the Nashville/Huntsville area. Based on the number who insisted they would come to the retreat if I offered it at the time I was talking about (which I am), the event should already be sold out by now. But it's not.

Now, I do realize it's the holidays, and some people may be waiting to register so the retreat can be their Christmas present. Or they may be waiting to register until after they've received cash Christmas presents. I'm hoping it's just a matter of timing, and there will be a rash of registrations by December 31, which is the last day of the early bird discount pricing. I would dearly love to sell out this retreat, just because it would be so much fun to sit and  have a crochet weekend with so many crocheters.

I do know that if I don't ultimately get a good turnout for this retreat after the large number of people who said they would come, then I won't be trying to put on any retreats in other areas of the country.

[Sylviaf]

It really seems like a "chicken or egg" question: do we avoid yarn stores because we feel excluded or do they exclude us because we avoid them? My other major interests are quilting and cross-stitch and there doesn't seem to be a huge concern about buying high quality supplies with these hobbies. (With the exception of sewing machines. Many sewers are afraid to spend any money to get good machines.) As long as nice yarns, from specialty stores or craft stores, continue to be available I will enjoy using them, but while I hate to miss a quilting, sewing or cross-stitch expo, I just don't worry too much about those with yarn because I have learned that I will probably be lees than satisfied by them.

[Amy]

Sylvia, when my kids were little, I did a lot of heirloom sewing. There's definitely a lot of "fabric from the sewing store is better than fabric from Hancock's or Hobby Lobby" in that segment. I was into it so much that I saved up for a long time so I could get what was then the top-of-the-line Viking embroidery sewing machine. It still works great for what I use it for. But, oh, man, the new embroidery machines are really something!

As far as crochet supplies in yarn stores, it really is sort of a chicken and egg type situation. I'm not sure we're ever going to come up with an answer that everyone is happy with or that even applies to most crocheters.

Most of the crocheters I know in real-life (not just online) are not exclusively craft store or exclusively LYS: they're a mix of both, based on the needs of the project or their pocketbook at the time.

[magiccrochetfan]

I enjoy seeing ads for higher-end yarns in crochet magazines, and it is nice to see crochet patterns put out by the companies.  But I really don't know that the yarn companies' marketing affects my buying decisions.  I've always used whatever yarn I thought was best for the project.  Back in the late 70s I crocheted my first adult sweaters using some very nice LYS wool.  Am still crocheting with LYS yarns.

[Gingerbread Girl]

I don't know that as a crocheter I have ever really felt excluded when things are geared mostly to knitters. I've noticed the focus on knitters, yes, however I've never really given it much thought. I buy what I like, regardless of how it's being promoted/marketed. My stash contains a mix of craft store yarns and yarn store yarns. I just go with what I like, what will work well for the given project, and what fits my budget at the time. I knit as well, but that's a relatively new thing; I only learned to knit in the past few years. Prior to that I felt the same way I do now: if it will work for a project and I can afford to get enough, then I buy it. I don't really care if the swatch/display piece was knit or crocheted - either way it gives me a feel for the yarn and that's all I need to get from it.

I know a lot of folks like to say yarn store yarn is too expensive but honestly, all the yarn stores I've been to have had a variety of lower and higher priced options, the same as craft stores. Both craft and yarn stores have some things available that I think are over-priced and offer an insanely small amount of yardage but also have other things that are reasonably priced and offer great yardage. For example, there is a particular craft store yarn I'd love to try but they want $13 for a 76yd hank - that's expensive to me. There's even one that is $5 for only 10 yards. On the contrary, there is a great yarn at one of my local yarn stores that is $11 a hank with 384 yards (similar weight to the $13/76yd craft store yarn). I've seen lots of great yarn store yarns for $5-7 a hank (with a couple hundred yards) as well. I don't understand the misconception some folks seem to have that yarn store yarn = way too expensive but craft store yarn = affordable. In my experience, both craft stores and yarn stores have a variety of options in all price ranges, from low cost + fair/generous yardage to high prices + ridiculously stingy yardage. 

 I don't see why it's a big deal when ultimately, to me and based solely on my own personal shopping experiences, things are pretty even between yarn store and craft store brands. In the end it's all "just yarn" and any of it will work perfectly well for both knitting and crocheting so it just comes down to personal preference. You can't really fault a store/company for not catering to your individual preferences precisely - it's impossible for them to do things in a way that will make everybody happy, so they just have to do what works best for them and appeals to the largest group of people. That's not playing favorites - it's business. 

[crabby rat]

I tried to do the challenge - and I was unable to complete it.  I have a few things working against me, though.  For one thing, I've never been in a LYS (or I guess what you call a "yarn store") so I have no personal practical experience with that.  As a matter of fact, I was very confused when first reading this thread because I didn't understand what the difference is between "yarn store yarn" and "craft store yarn".  LOL  I figured it out by reading through the thread, though.  I did check out a few of the links on the Vendor List page you shared, Amy, and there were a few crochet patterns that I thought were cute on one site (Malabrigo) but I didn't see anywhere to order yarn, or that had the prices listed.  I have to guess they only sell in-store, which is fine - I just can't tell you if I'd spend whatever the asking price is to make the projects I thought were cute.  On another site, (Claudia Hand-Painted Yarns) the prices are listed along with the yardage, and there is a chart for needle size, etc - but it doesn't state the yarn weight on all of them.  I should be able to figure it out using needle size, though.  On that site, I couldn't tell if any of the patterns were crochet or not.  I don't know if I checked any further because I just don't feel I have enough real-world experience to judge based solely on what I'm seeing on my computer monitor.  Sorry I can't be more help.  

 

I also want to say that Gingerbread Girl makes very salient points, and I tend toward her attitude as far as what I buy and why.  If it seems like it will work, I go for it.  

[craftyone]

I just looked at Universal yarns website. The yarns there are more moderately priced and there are some beautiful ones there that I would love to use for some personal projects. I'm not sure how many of the patterns they offer are crochet- the images are to small too tell and you have to open each pattern to see if its knit or crochet. I did see a pretty summer cardigan in crochet that I would like to make. I'm bookmarking the site to look at more thoroughly. I'm partial to the shaded yarns and ones with a little sparkle and shine.

[RoseRed]

LYS = local yarn store

 

craft yarn store = stores like Joanns, Michael's and Hobby Lobby.

 

Most of the LYS's carry top of the line yarns that can get very expensive.  Craft yarn stores carry the chain brands like Bernat or Red Heart.

[Amy]

Some yarn stores yarns are definitely on the more expensive end: Trendsetter, Prism, Windy Valley Muskox, etc.

There are also some yarns on the more affordable end that may have a fairly comparable total project price. Instead of focusing on the cost per ball/skein, it's important to do a little math. There's quite often a big different in yardarge in a ball/skein when you're comparing a craft store yarn to a yarn store yarn.

Just divide the dollar amount by the number of yards in the ball/skein to figure out the price per yard. Once you've done that, you may find that there's not that much of a difference between certain yarns. Or the difference is small enough for the total cost of the project that you decide you want to work with a "nicer" yarn.

Just because a yarn store is sold in a yarn store doesn't automatically make it a "nicer" yarn. For example, there are a few craft store yarns that are also sold in yarn stores under a different brand/label for more money. But if you put the two side by side, it's obvious by reading the ball band information and looking at them, that they are the exact same yarn.
 

[magiccrochetfan]

some LYS yarns can be very expensive, but as Gingerbreadgirl said, a lot of the yarns carried by LYS are really moderately priced.  And there are other factors than price alone---some slightly more expensive yarns have a LOT of yardage for example.  

[magiccrochetfan]

there are a few craft store yarns that are also sold in yarn stores under a different brand/label for more money. But if you put the two side by side, it's obvious by reading the ball band information and looking at them, that they are the exact same yarn.

 

That really surprises me! Is this a semi-well-known fact that i should already know about? Or is it a secret?

[Amy]

I'm not sure that it's a secret, because all you'd have to do is put two yarns side by side, look at them, look at the colors available in both of them, to know that they were made in the same mill. Same yarn, same colors, different labels. But neither company makes a point of saying their yarn is the exact same thing as another company's. Anyone who's familiar with craft store yarns and the right brand of yarn-store yarns would easily notice this fact.

There are also many base yarns that are carried by different yarn companies that give them different names. The base yarn is the same. Each company may have it produced in their own colors or perhaps sometimes they all use the same colors. Each company just has the mill put their own label on it.

It's the same thing that happens in the grocery industry. Grocery stores don't have factories producing their own canned vegetables, for example. They contract with the factories to make a run and slab the store labels on those cans. Sometimes it's a slightly different recipe; sometimes it's the same recipe.

 

[catk102]

Long time reader firs time poster.

Maybe the issue is not necessarily a quantity vs quality issue,or even a cost issue.Looking around people I know the knitters are of a differnet mindset than crocheters,heck even the bi-craftual ones it depends on their mood at the time wether thye are knitting or crocheting.

The crocheters that I know tend to be project oriented,meaning that once they decide on a project is gogogo time.Get the yarn start aproject and get it done.They also tend to have 1 or 2  projects going at the time.They tend to get their satisfation with the finished product and how well it turned out.

The knitters on the other hand tend to be more process oriented,meaning the take more joy in the process of making a project,in the zen approach no matter how long a project takes,it gets put aside sometimes as an unfinished thing because another one catches their attention or nicer feeling yarn etc.If a finished project comes out that is great and they love it and cherish it but that is not the primary goal here.

So keeping that in mind crocheters tend to go to the nearest place that has the greatest possibility of having suitable yarn and big box stores are everywhere.Where as for knitters the trip to the LYS is an event ,that is sometimes planned out in advance.this is as much part of their knitting experience as the actual knitting itself.

Crocheters want the yarn and get on with it so to speak.

Since I kinda know both(not real well either lol) I can tell with myself it depends on my state of mind what I do.

So I think its not a problem of cost or representation but a psychological,meaning you cant approach the  crochet crowd the same way you can the knitting crowd.

[papersmiles]

Well, it's taken me a while to get back to this thread but here is my opinion and I hope it's not too lengthy. 

 

I spent a bit of time over the last couple weeks visiting yarn sites of the vendors for Sttitches.   Right from the get-go I have to admit NEVER having seen many of the yarns offered and would absolutely love to attend a Stitches event.  

 

As far as the yarns are concerned for the most part they appear to be high end materials but with great value attached.  It was disappointing to discover that the majority of the yarn sites (Prism, Malabrigo, Kollage, Fiesta) offered few if any crochet patterns.  However, that wouldn’t necessarily sway me from frequenting their site.  As a long time crocheter I already have tons of patterns in my collection.  I did notice that many of the higher cost yarns were also in skeins or hanks of larger yardage making them more of a “bargain”.   I could definitely see myself purchasing one or two skeins of a simply scrumptious yarn just to work it up into a small project.

 

Now on to the five questions posed by Amy:  I will pick Interlacements Yarns, LLC.  (a wholesale company but can refer you to local retailers that carry their yarn)

 

A. I didn’t find a whole lot of crochet patterns that I would purchase but then they didn’t have a lot of patterns to choose from.  I did like the Irish Linen Lace Jacket pattern.  Unfortunately it didn’t give a yarn amount nor was there any yardage or gauge info under the suggested yarn for that pattern so that lack of info would probably be off putting.  As a yarn buyer I need good info on both the pattern and the yarn.  Viewing items made from specific yarns gives me a good idea of drape and texture so it would be nice to see a reflection of that in a larger selection (knit or crochet) patterns.

 

B. I guess my honest answer to “…using the high end yarn or a cheaper yarn…” lies with how much yarn it would take.  At $32.00 plus a skein, it would be difficult to justify that cost were I making a vest, shawl or sweater.  But for a very special item (wedding, anniversary or other celebratory gift) I could see myself purchasing one or max two skeins.

 

C. When would I buy the yarn or pattern?……I am a “find it, buy it” type person.  So if I found a pattern and a yarn I liked at the same site I would probably purchase both immediately.

 

D. As the pattern offering for this company was pretty limited I probably wouldn’t buy any of their patterns.  And the lack of information on patterns and yarn (yards, gauge, hooks, needles) would seem to be a bit of an impediment for thoughtful shopping.   Good information impacts my decision on whether to buy or not.  Lack of information generally tells me to move on .

 

E. With reference to pattern requests, project wants and yarns, of course, it would be nice to see a bigger range of crochet patterns. Interlacements yarns are very well priced with large yardage amounts per hank/skein.  I like the variety of fibers offered (hemp, rayon, bamboo, cotton, flax, soy) which is very attractive to someone who is not necessarily a “wool or acrylic person”.   My opinion on the subject of pattern offerings is it might prove prudent for this or any company to offer a solid core of crochet patterns for tried and true sellers (shawls, vests, mitts, scarves, jewelry, even doilies) to showcase the look of that kind of pattern in an exceptional yarn.  Then have a couple of trendy clothing or accessory items to lure the dedicated designer to give their yarns a try.

 

In closing I will note that most of the companies’ websites that I visited seemed to lean (as a company)  toward one kind of fiber or another (many of them were woolsies) but as to patterns, other than Craftsy and Red Heart, there were few if any crochet patterns.  This “yarnie adventure” has opened my eyes to a world of truly remarkable fibers available and I will be expanding my yarn buying with the new year.   

 

Whew, that was waaaaay long a post for me and now I am DONE….laughing.

 

Barbara

[magiccrochetfan]

catk102, I think your description of the different mindsets is great.  I think the gogogo get it done mindset does apply to a lot of crocheters.  But I also think there are a lot of crocheters who enjoy the journey so to speak.  I know myself i love to pick out natural fiber yarns at the LYS, or search them out online, and enjoy crocheting with them at least as much as I do knitting.  And I know people who mainly crochet with craft store yarn but aren't in a rush about it and enjoy the making of each project.  

 

I do agree that there seem to be a lot of crocheters who mainly want to keep their hands busy, must have a useful object at the end of the project, and want to crank out as many objects as possible in the shortest time, with the least expense.