Chain spaces

[KerrieS]

I am making a crochet bag. I took classes which seemed helpful until…..!!!
 

I am working a section where the instructions are:

*3dc into 3rd st (cluster), 1 ch. sp, sk 3.

second row: *1 ch. sp., sk 3, cluster into first chain space.

So….working with 37 stitches, you are creating a total of 11 clusters.

BUT I was working a chain between each cluster. The stitch count was therefore wrong. I assumed, then, that this meant you did NOT work a chain, the ch sp is created by the absence.

however when I google ‘ chain spaces’ it seems quite often to be meaning you are working a chain.

And following this part of the pattern, the next section reads:

sc 1st st, 3 ch sp, sc centre stitch from cluster below.

So if you DIDNT work 3 chains, your stitch count would be out.

I'm so confused and disheartened at present! 

Would love some help, thank you

 

 

 

 

 

[Granny Square]

A chain space is x chains between 2 other not-chain stitches.  It is not necessarily always worked into later, but most often is in my experience making doilies; If you don't, the alternative is making a bigger chain space over them, which is probably unlikely.  You should be able to tell by looking at the pattern photo.  "A chain space is created by it's absence" makes no sense (sorry, not meaning an insult); the pattern wouldn't say chain space unless it meant chain space; working into a chain space means to work a stitch by sticking your hook under the chain, and working a stitch around the chain.  You can also stick your hook into 1 of the chains that creates the stitch, but working around it is easier and is more flexible and probably sturdier.  ( I make a lot of doilies and a lot of chain spaces! )

The first line of your pattern appears to be incomplete: " *3dc into 3rd st (cluster), 1 ch. sp, sk 3."  You can't end a row or round in a chain space, because you need a not-chain to close the chain space.  (Unless, since it is a bag, possibly worked in the round, you just omitted typing the join instruction).

Can you link to the pattern, or give us the name if there is a photo on the internet so we can see what it looks like? (don't post the pattern here, but sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words).

Edited April 9 by Granny Square

[KerrieS]

I’ve added a photo of the instructions which shows the full row instructions  as well as a photo of the bag. It is a pattern created by the store where I took lessons. I probably need to go back there with this query I guess.

the main problem I have is that if I am making a chain in between 11 clusters, I will have more than the stated 37 stitches. So it feels wrong. There is no chain space in the previous row. 
 

[bgs]

Have you actually tried to do exactly what it says? Sometimes you have to trust the pattern and not read anything into it.  Sometimes it doesnt work and you have to pull it apart and try again.  From what I am reading it really feels like this will work.  Its your basic granny worked in rows rather than rounds.

Correct, row 17 is not worked into chain spaces but you are creating chain spaces in row 17 by chaining one over skipped stitches (which happen to be single crochet).   You can work multiple stitches into one stitch on the previous row. There is no stitch count given for row 17.  

[KerrieS]

2 minutes ago, bgs said:

Have you actually tried to do exactly what it says? Sometimes you have to trust the pattern and not read anything into it.  Sometimes it doesnt work and you have to pull it apart and try again.  From what I am reading it really feels like this will work.  Its your basic granny worked in rows rather than rounds.

Correct, row 17 is not worked into chain spaces but you are creating chain spaces in row 17 by chaining one over skipped stitches (which happen to be single crochet).   You can work multiple stitches into one stitch on the previous row. There is no stitch count given for row 17.  

I tried it without chaining..to me it then looks “right.” 

With chaining you end up with more stitches ( I initially did this) - there are 11 clusters and a chain between each one..so the bag grew in width from the 37 you are doing in previous sections. This instinctively seems wrong?!

thank you for your help.  I guess my fundamental question is, in other rows it says chain one. In this section it says chain space. Why would there be a difference? Are they interchangeable terms?

I do think I should go back to the shop where I took the lessons to check what they intended and if there is something I’m just not getting!

 

[bgs]

In next and subsequent rows it is telling you to work into the chain spaces you made on the row just prior.  Row 17 you are creating your first row of chain spaces.  

In some granny squares I have worked my clusters between stitches because the chain space was too much and they didnt lay right.  Others need it because it pulls in. Kind of depends on your persona gauge,  thickness of your yarn and hook size.  You will know after you work a few rows.  Your edges are not straight and your piece is shrinking

 

Edited April 10 by bgs

[Granny Square]

Oh, I was not picturing granny squares! I agree with what Bgs is saying about getting them to lay flat if your stitch-making habits are different from the designers'; things worked center out in the round have to obey the laws of geometry to lay flat. 

The number of chains one puts between the 'clusters' as your pattern calls them, can vary depending on how tall you make your stitches, and perhaps the tension of the chains you put between them.  "Looking right' is irrelevant, there is a reason for the chain or chains being between the clusters on a granny square, actually 2:  to keep the square laying flat, and to make room to cram the cluster you will be making in the next round.  I personally make sort of short stitches, and sort of loose/tall chains, so I can get by with 1 chain between clusters on a granny square to keep the square flat;, if I made taller stitches, that would be different, I'd likely need to add chains (It's all about the geometry of a circle to keep the item flat, because even though the shape is square, you are working in a circle).

If YOU can get away without chaining, AND the square lies nice and flat, AND you can cram clusters in the space between clusters in the prior row, go for it.  

You said "I guess my fundamental question is, in other rows it says chain one. In this section it says chain space. Why would there be a difference? Are they interchangeable terms?"  No, they are not always interchangeable terms, because you don't always chain 1.  In your particular pattern this may happen to be true, BUT if you happen to decide to make a doily for example, you might have chain spans of multiple lengths; in that case, in my experience the pattern will identify a chain space by the number of chains in it (making something up to illustrate, "chain 6, skip the next dc, ch-2 space, and DC;  DC in the following DC" for example (and in the next row, it might say to do something in the chain-6 space).  (I hope that isn't clear as mud).  (edited for clarity & punctuation)

 

 

Edited April 10 by Granny Square

[KerrieS]

Thanks so much for these valiant attempts to assist.

I am wondering if my issue is that in knitting (I’m a very experienced knitter but trying to learn crochet) - you expect to have the same number of stitches unless you are actually deliberately increasing or decreasing. Maybe it’s possible that as you come back the other way on row 18, the number of stitches evens out as you’re working into those spaces ie not into each individual stitch?

Well, one thing is clear, I am still very far from getting the logic of crochet! 

[Granny Square]

I knit too, actually I learned as a kid but learned crochet soon after and mostly knit sweaters and socks and crochet everything else (mostly doilies, they're more interesting than most things) .  And confession, I have never knitted lace (well, not like an airy doily, just eyelets).

IMO one of the biggest differences is that (to me), and meaning no disrespect to knitting because it's beautiful (and there are a lot of things that intimidate me and I haven't tried yet) knitting is...sort of limiting with having your stitches stuck on sticks.  With crochet, you are not limited to rows or rounds but you can stick your hook almost any old place and make a stitch.  You can have a row with stitches of different heights, you can reach down 4 rows below and make a spike stitch or a post stitch over the fabric below, not working into a stitch in the conventional way.  

On the stitch count thing, that is an interesting point.  What I said about 'stitch making habits' is something that doesn't happen with knitting, because the stitch dimensions are more strictly controlled by the needles, than they are with how a crocheter wields a hook.  A crocheter can make lofty stitches, or squatty ones--and I mean if I make a DC, the designer might make a DC that is relatively taller or shorter than mine with the same hook and yarn, because there is a human variable in how one pulls up loops - it isn't as strictly controlled by the hook as stitches on a needle.

And I probably didn't help by mentioning lace chain spans, where you can have a section of a doily being mostly chain spans for example.  And chain spans aren't always straight across; in your pattern they are because they are very short, but a lot of  doilies are mostly chain spans, like this for example https://freevintagecrochet.com/doily-patterns/royal9/130-doily-pattern 

Hang in there, rochet is not hard, it's just different.

[KerrieS]

That is actually a really helpful description to me. Coming to it late, I get quite fixated on where the hook should go with descriptions like “ work a DC into the SC.” Front loop, back loop, both loops. sounds like there is a lot more leeway depending on what’s going on in the pattern.

[bgs]

So this is a smaller piece.  You start with the solid piece

 

Instructions row 17 you are making the open areas.  If you do not make the chain 1's piece is going to horribly pull in.  You need that ch 1 to get you over 3 skipped stitches in row below.There is an extra stitch on lower left because I chained a random number and worked sc rather than doing the math to come out exact.   

This is row 18.  That extra stitch to disregard is now on right side.  It would pull in horribly without the ch1 

 

Also if you do the math for row 17 you have the ch 3 which may or may not be counted as stitch.  Pattern should tell you which to do. 

There are 12 clusters and each has 3 dc so that gives you 36 stitches

Finish row with 1 dc gives you one stitc

So if ch3 is not counted you have 37 stitches for row 17

Chains are not generally counted in stitch counts.  If they are the stitch count breaks it down in number of dc's and number of chains but more commonly lists number of chain spaces that were made.

Edited April 12 by bgs

[KerrieS]

24 minutes ago, bgs said:

So this is a smaller piece.  You start with the solid piece

 

Instructions row 17 you are making the open areas.  If you do not make the chain 1's piece is going to horribly pull in.  You need that ch 1 to get you over 3 skipped stitches in row below.There is an extra stitch on lower left because I chained a random number and worked sc rather than doing the math to come out exact.   

This is row 18.  That extra stitch to disregard is now on right side.  It would pull in horribly without it.

 

Also if you do the math for row 17 you have the ch 3 which may or may not be counted as stitch.  Pattern should tell you which to do. 

There are 12 clusters and each has 3 dc so that gives you 36 stitches

Finish row with 1 dc gives you one stitc

So if ch3 is not counted you have 37 stitches for row 17

Chains are not generally counted in stitch counts.  If they are the stitch count breaks it down in number of dc's and number of chains but more commonly lists number of chain spaces that were made.

Oh goodness!! This is exactly the issue I could not get past. Thank you so much, for the pictures as well.

I have to say, I must have been doing something else wrong though, as my section of that stitch grew like a kindergarten child’s first scarf 🥵