1898 hat pattern gauge help questions

[catwoman]

Hi.🙂 I was wondering if you could help me with the gauge on this pattern. The link is here   www.cas.seamenschurch.org/christmas-at-sea

It is a free pdf pattern.

The pattern gauge is 20 sts per 4 inches

And   row gauge is 24 rows per 4 inches

Both in stockinette stitch.

I got 19 sts per 4 inches

And 23 rows per 4 inches  in stockinette stitch

Using a knitters pride us 7    16 inch circular needle and using caron cakes worsted weight yarn.

The patterns 2nd gauge is

20 sts per 4 inches

36 rows per 4 inches both in garter stitch

I got 18 sts per 4 inches in garter stitch and the row gauge I never got that yet.

I have measured my across using a measuring tape and it's a little over 22 inches.

I was wondering how to adjust or calculate the difference in both gauges?

What do you think I should do, just do the pattern as is or not?

 

 

 

         

 

[Granny Square]

Something's wrong with the link, although it looks the same as the one on Ravelry.  The below Rav seems to work

Ravelry link = https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/1898-hat

So...the headband is knit flat and seamed vertically.  Then, you fold the band in half and pick up stitches thru both edges, and knit the hat up from there.  

This construction would make it easy to work the headband and fit it around your head with the needles in when you get close to your measurement, or 'stretch' preference (I like mine a tad loose, you might prefer it tighter).  Your stockinette gauge is closest to the pattern (but a little bigger), I'd go with that and you might have to tweak the number of rows by just a few on the band and the hat part above the band (more on that below).

The other tweak would be at the decrease part.  I also have a very definite crown-to-ear measurement preference and have an old hat that I keep as a 'ruler' to measure my new in-process hats with; if you don't have an ideal hat on hand, measure your head with a tailor's tape from ear to ear across the crown of your head, where you'd want the brim of the hat to be.  Example, for me that would be 16 inches, or with the hat folded in half 8 inches.

The pattern has 10 rounds of decreases.  Measure 10 rounds at YOUR gauge.  Subtract that from your desired distance from ear to crown; that's where you'll want to start the decreases.  Also, since your stitch count will probably be different from the pattern, you'll have to re-figure how to space the decreases, or maybe have more rows of decreases (if that's the case, you'd want to start them a bit sooner).  

It really bugs me that knitted hats assume a ridiculous % of stretch (which I can never get them to do).  I also disagree with the pattern's finished circumference claim of 19".   Pattern gauge: 20 sts /4", so each stitch is 0.2" wide, times 84 stitches picked up at the edge of the brim is only 16.8".  Now, the 84 stitches is not at the brim bottom edge, but a little closer to the crown...but that is still ridiculous, it's not going to stretch more than 5" to fit a 22" head.  I don't make a lot of hats, but when I pick a knit one I have to majorly modify it to fit.  Maybe it's because I tend to use acrylic, perhaps wool stretches a lot more.

So, basically what I'm saying is use the pattern as a recipe but the way it's made, it won't be hard to adjust the fit.  You're going to make more stitches for the brim to fit your head, and pick up more stitches than 84 to work up the sides.

[catwoman]

Hi Grannysquare. Thanks for the amazing help. Can i ask one more question? What do you mean when you say measure 10 rounds at your gauge?😕

[Granny Square]

Hi, you're very welcome.

So after you pick up stitches from the edge of the garter stitch brim, you will be working in stockinette for a 5 inches (per the pattern) then starting decreases.  BUT since your gauge is different from the pattern, and if you modify it to fit your head, you will need to modify the row counts to fit your head/desired hat height measurement for YOU.  

I just realized I overlooked that one set of your gauge numbers was stockinette and one was garter, sorry--I'll edit my post above.  Your stockinette row gauge was 23 rows per 4 inches.  4 divided by 23 is 0.174" height per 1 row, so 10 rows is 1.75".  The 10 rows was referring to the number of rows the pattern used to decrease for the top; the reason I said to measure 10 stitches, was if you wanted to modify the hat height to suit YOU, you'd need to know how far from the end to start the decreases so it would come out right.

 

[catwoman]

hi grannysquare. I had to change to steel straight needles for the garter gauge in pattern and it changed my gauge to

18 sts per 4 inches

and  18 rows in garter instead of the patterns row gauge of 36 rows in garter stitch?

Do i just make 9 rows less on each headband side?

What do you think i should do?

[Granny Square]

Wow, so your stitches are TWICE the size (height) than they are supposed to be (half as many rows needed to reach 4" than the pattern says).  

That means you only need to make half as many rows as the pattern calls for, for the brim.   The garter band is made sideways, in other words each row does not go around your head but in the short direction, so the row height gauge is what counts for the measurement around the head.  But then, you pick up stitches on the sides for the stockinette brim-to-crown part, on 2x more stitches...I don't think that would work.

If it were me, I'd be uncomfortable trying to re-design this because of (1) getting the ear flap positioning right, and (2) the stitch ratios being different for garter and stockinette going the same direction, but this pattern has the added complexity of them having to match up in 2 directions...too many variables.  

  I just realized something, you may be counting the garter row gauge wrong and if I'm right, your garter gauge might be exactly correct.  Take a look at this article, the orange stripe is 2 rows.  It's 1 'ridge', so you might think a ridge is a row, but it's not.

 

[Granny Square]

OH!!   I just figured out how you came up with your "9 stitches on each end" question, when I was answering your question about 'variables' on your other thread.   

Your gauge was off by 18 rows over a tiny swatch of 4 inches, not 18 rows over the whole hat 19" hat measurement-- which is almost five 4" row swatches.

In your example, the math was easy as 18 is half of 36, meaning 'your stitches were 2x the size to be able to fit in the gauge box' following the analogy I made in your other thread.

I think this fits in with what I was trying to say in the other thread about visualization.  What does a tiny variation in my little swatch mean over the whole project?  If your swatch is 50% off on a 4" sample, the whole big thing would be 50% off the whole 19" hat.

[catwoman]

Hi grannysquare. You were right about me not counting each garter row for 2.

I checked my gauge again and it is 17 sts per 4 inches in garter and 36 rows in 4 inches.

But when i have tried the brim of the hat it keep falling off my head and the hat can stretch way too much like 36 inches across.

It was way too loose .

 

[Granny Square]

It would make sense if you were counting the garter 'ridge' as 1 row instead of the 2 it really is, that the hat brim, which is measured in the row direction, would be about 2x too big--36" is 'about' twice the 19" it's supposed to be.  

Your stitch gauge is 17 stitches per 4", which is a little bit too big (pattern stitch gauge is 20 per 4"); so the brim might be a little wider up-and-down (not around the head), and the hat might be a little loose.

Some math on the stitch width: the pattern stitch width gauge is easy math--4" divided by 20 stitches is 0.2" per stitch (.02" is one fifth of an inch, so 5 stitches per inch, times 4 inches, is 20 stitches, to work it backwards).  

Your stitch gauge:  4" divided by 17 stitches is 0.24" per stitch.  

So the band's cast on is 27 stitches.  At the pattern gauge, this would be 27x0.2=5.4".  At your gauge, 27x0.25"=6.75".  At your gauge, to get a 5" band, let's do some division: 5" divided by your stitch width of 0.25" is 20 -- so you'd want to cast on 20 instead of 27 for the band, to have it be 5".

The other place you'd need to worry about your stitch width would be where you pick up stitches from the side of the band.  You are supposed to pick up 84 stitches.  At the pattern gauge, 84 stitches x .2" per stitch = 16.8 inches.  Doing the same math as we did for the band, 16.8" divided by your stitch width of 0.25" is 67.2...so ideally you'd pick up 67 or 68 stitches instead of 84.  However...I'm looking ahead at where it does the hat decreases, because this scheme is going to change depending on the number I pick here....actually there is probably an easy way to figure this but it's escaping me.  Since your height gauge matches the pattern, it would have to be over the same number of rounds, but the numbers would change.  I will be back...

 

 

[Granny Square]

I picked 72 stitches to be picked up to get this to work evenly, a couple more than 67 or 68 but it should work.  Knit hats are always designed really small to stretch a lot, this will just need to stretch a little less.

Pick up 72 stitches and work past the brim per the pattern. The new decrease scheme, which decreases 8 stitches each decrease round:

k8, k2 tog around; k3 plain rows

k7, k2tog around; k3 plain rows

k6, k2tog around; k2 plain rows  (note, plain rows change from 3 to 2, and stay at 2 except after the last decrease

k5, k2tog around; k2 plain rows  

k4, k2tog around; k2 plain rows  

k3, k2tog around; k2 plain rows  

k2, k2tog around; k2 plain rows  

k1, k2tog -- then finish off  these remaining 8 stitches as the pattern instructs.

[catwoman]

Hi granny square.🙂 thanks for the amazing help. i will definitely try to do the things that you have said in the last 2 replys.

The 2nd gauge in stockinette stitch I got was

18 sts per 4 inches

23 rows per 4inches

Do you think that it will be fine?