Glue (Fray Check), weaving ends, and to knot or not?

[crosette]

I've heard (I think it was on here somewhere) of people using some type of glue to secure yarn ends after weaving. I am really paranoid about my yarn ends wiggling free especially when I've given the item to someone as a gift.

 

I was at the craft/fabric section in Walmart and asked the fabric-cutter-lady about it and she was shocked and got all snippy with me (-"We don't glue yarn ends we crochet over them!").

 

So anyway, I just wanted to know...am I imagining reading about this?!

[creativegoodness]

I don't knot, personally...

 

But I don't want to discuss that..lol..I will just say this is a great "hidden ends" tutorial.........

 

http://pandacrochet.8m.com/hidden_ends.htm

 

I hope this helps a bit with the ends...I saw someone mention that they had a hard time weaving ends, and talking about work coming undone.

[Empress Busy Bee]

I can see we're not going to get anywhere with this and I have no wish to argue with anyone. I'm letting it go.

 

[Donna]

And people wonder why we have a no politics rule! Can you imagine?

 

Yes, I have strong opinions and I feel that I should be free to express them here. As should others feel free to express their opinions. I hope you won't hold that against me!

[wrenlover]

I agree its a personal preference. If I'm making a bulky blanket, with 2 strands of yarn, I will knot and just hide it by crocheting over it. I've gotten into the habit of using large darning needles to weave ends in (it seems to help secure it better by going through the yarn not just the stitches, like you would with a hook). I have used fray check on ends. Some brands dry a bit hard while others are more flexible and not noticable. I am not a big fan of it though. I'm more in favor of weaving, but it depends on the project too.

 

Lisa

[goldi316]

Until recently, when I started to seriously get into working pieces with color changes, I always knotted -and always hated how it came out, but I didn't know a better way and thought that was the way it was done. I mean, it seemed like that's what you had to do to add yarn in a project. But it always made that part of my project lumpy, no matter how hard I tried to hide it. So I was thrilled to discover a way to join yarn without having to tie those hated knots! I can't tell you how many projects I passed up because they required large amounts of yarn that would have called for lots of joining.

 

I was a bit nervous about my work coming undone, at first. But it hasn't happened yet, and that's even after repeated washings too. I don't worry about it anymore.

 

I never even considered using glue on yarn ends. I think I would hesitate to use it on anything wearable, but as long as it's not overdone, I don't think there would be any harm in using it on an afghan or something, say, like a cellphone cozy or something similar, if it will make you feel more secure. It'd be less likely to be noticed that way if there's a small stiff spot in the project.

 

But I still hate weaving in ends. No matter how carefully I try to do it, all too often they still end up distorting some of the stitches in that area, especially when it's a lacy pattern.

[xantha]

 

I certainly wasn't trying to step on toes either.

 

I've found with everything, be is throwing pots, crocheting, spinning yarn, heck even writing code (which I do for a living and was 'trained' to do) -- even if there's a "right" way to do something, there's also an instance where the "right" way isn't the right way for that situation.

 

I tried knotting once, and I tried leaving a knot in a skein of yarn that I had purchased that way once and I had to frog both items because it looked funny and wore funny and otherwise didn't work for me. But I tried it the same way I like to try everything. I do some things unconventionally, but I also make a point to try the conventional method and sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't.

 

I've taught a number of people how to join without knots when they asked me how to do it. I've always taught the "accepted" method, and interestingly, most of the once-knotters prefer the joining method once they've done it. But it's one of those preferences...

 

As for the glue thing, I've seen people use glue or nail polish remover to string beads onto yarn/thread (but that part of the yarn/thread doesn't make it into the finished product) and I've seen people use glue in beading to set the knot on the beaded item. I've never seen it in crochet otherwise...

[sjkmaurice]

I think it would be great if folks who insist on knotting would just try it without. However, it can be difficult to see how the ends could be woven in securely without having somebody show, in person, how it's done.

 

I accept your challenge and request your help, please. I currently knot and leave about 5 or 6 inches of tail, which I crochet over (assuming I'm using a pattern that will hide it, which I am now). I don't cut until I'm finished so I can shake out the item, wash it (which I find kind of "sets" the ends in) and give it a tiny tug to make sure it's not going anywhere. For the most part, that works, but the last blanket I made, the ends kept poking out so I was glad for the knots. Anyway, I'm a visual learner. If you give me instructions, I could probably follow them and tell you how it goes. What do you say? Wanna help?

[goldi316]

Since there had been a gap of a good 15 years from when I'd last done any serious crocheting (I picked it up again briefly about 4 years ago, but then got derailed from my plans by life events), one of the first books I picked up when I decided it was time to again indulge my passion was the book Crocheting in Plain English by Maggie Righetti. It sounded like the perfect book to help me relearn what I'd mostly forgotten after all those years. I've had the book parked here by the computer ever since. So I pulled it down and took a browse...

 

Just for a starting reference, this book was published in 1988 and was, quite frankly, written in a style that was familiar to me for crocheting from my childhood and early adulthood. It's where crochet was when I last left off, only to find it had developed a whole new personality when I recently came back. I almost didn't recognize it, things had changed that much. I was thrilled! Anyway, back to the book.

 

In Chapter 15 (starting on page 72), she discusses adding new yarn. After an introductory review of the many various reasons for adding yarn, she gets down to the business of discussing how to do it. According to her, the method used depends on where the new yarn is to be added (middle of the row or end of the row) and the technique she describes is different for each one. Her technique for the middle of the row is to...

 

...knot!

 

Yup, that's right. Her method is very rigorous and methodical, in order to ensure the knot is carefully placed on the "wrong side" of the work and hidden. This is the method I've never been able to master.

 

The other method we've been discussing, according to her, is commonly used at the ends of rows, but she states that a knot still has to be made(!). She offers up a third option for that, which is merely breaking off the old yarn and restarting with the new.

 

Ironically, also in that chapter, under the discussion about weaving in ends, she describes her method which also includes the statement about being careful to go between the strands and not to "split" them. I have often seen other instructions that say just the opposite!

 

Now, although this lady is held out to be an "expert", that doesn't necessarily make everything she says "right", but I do believe that knotting the yarn was common knowledge. An awful lot of folks do it, and are comfortable with it, and it doesn't seem to have had a negative impact on our art, that I've ever seen. Like I said, it was only recently that I learned there could be another way of doing it, myself. And it appears that it is a recent development in the crochet world for it to be "standard". Nothing wrong with that - if the craft can't evolve with the times, it couldn't possibly last - and it has lasted for an awful lot of years!

 

I was awed by this gal until I hit the chapter (early on) which discussed, among other things, how to hold the hook. She lost me pretty quickly on that one when in the first sentence of that section she stated

Your crochet hook is not a plow or a hoe for gardening. Your right hand must never rest on top of the hook.

I personally find it impossible to hold my hook in any other way! But, just to be sure, I did give it another try. It was such a dismal failure (I could not make a stitch if my life depended on it) that I decided I'd rather hold my hook in the way that worked for me so that I could enjoy what I was doing instead of sweating it out trying to do it the "right" way. Ironically (or not, perhaps) the reviews for this book at amazon.com frequently zero in on this specific complaint as well - she hit a hot button when she dissed us "gardeners".

 

I believe that the fear of our work coming unravelled is a universal crocheter's nightmare, it seems to come with the territory. My feeling is that whatever method you use, if it mollifies that fear and doesn't negatively affect your project, then it's the right thing to do - for you.

 

But it doesn't hurt to give a different method a try, either. Who knows, you may end up finding you prefer it after all!

[xantha]

wow, that's interesting, Goldi!

[Bobbie Faye]

I realize I'm very late in adding my comments to this thread .. but in order to teach myself how to crochet, many years ago, I borrowed a "How To" video from the library. In the video, the instructor said to weave the thread in one direction and then back in the other direction. She said to try to insert your needle into the yarn and "split" it when you do this... and that it will never unravel.

 

This works well for me with 4 ply ... Don't know if you could do this with fingering weight, etc.

[Aggie May]

If you are using regular yarn, you can join by splicing. It really works best with wool or acrylic yarns rather than the fancy fearher type yarns.

Un-twist the ends to be joined and break off half the threads, overlap the thinner ends and gently rub together in the palms of your hands. Sometimes a wee bit of moisture helps to get the bits to stick so I am piggy and lick my fingers. Any little bits sticking out after you have carefully worked the joined yarn can be snipped off.

If you do not want to do this, be prepared to join at the beginning of a row then cut off the end left if it is long enough and save it for sewing up.

Making knots in fancy yarn then working over the ends is a good option as the knots dont show but in a plain smooth finish, knots are harder to hide.

Have fun.

Colleen

[Donna]

CGOA was founded in 1994; does that make them know less? They have a very expreienced and well respected membership, who have been crocheting since long before CGOA was around. I have been crocheting for 25 years and I am not self-taught.

 

I am hardheaded about this. My intention is not to hurt anybody's feelings and I would never call anybody stupid. But there is a standard way of doing things and it is for a reason; it's not pulled out of a hat. That does not mean people who do things other ways are "wrong."

 

My frustration comes from the fact that so many people seem to have no interest in knowing or trying the accepted way (not just about knotting, but about other things, too). I have tried both ways and I see no reason to knot; on the contrary, I see a lot of reasons not to knot.

 

I think it would be great if folks who insist on knotting would just try it without. However, it can be difficult to see how the ends could be woven in securely without having somebody show, in person, how it's done. (And what does it really matter what I think would be great anyway?)

 

My philosophy is to give anything a good, earnest try the standard, accepted way (I won't say correct way because I don't want to get into an argument over semantics), and if you don't like it, do it your way.

[sjkmaurice]

Crochetaddict033 - thanks SO MUCH for that tutorial! I just finished my second granny square blanket, and while it's too late now, I hated how both blankets got that little knot at the end of the square when I was done and I always had to join that side twice because I'd have an extra stitch or not enough stitches. That technique is just wonderful.

 

Aggie May - Do I weave in a few stitches and then split the yarn and weave in a few more stitches, or split it in the first place and then weave it in? I have never heard of doing this, but I see how it makes so much sense and wouldn't be easy to unravel.

 

I am finding this very fascinating. I've been spending time trying to hide my knots by weaving and pulling and crocheting over. This splitting and new end joining technique will be very helpful!

[kahud48]

I made an afgan 20 years ago. It was my second project when I had just learned to crochet. I made the basic ripple. I made it for my Mom and I made it large enough to cover her bed, corner to coner, top to bottom. I tied my ends, and crocheted over them. Mom just past away in March this year, and before she pasted away, she surprised me with sending me that afgan.

There are no holes nor ravels, all still intact, just like I made it-----20 years ago.

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that I will stick with this way.

To old to change now.

GLUE

 

TIE AND CROCHET OVER

[Donna]

I'm glad we are having this discussion!

 

I accept your challenge and request your help, please.

I do my ends similar to how it is shown in the Hidden Ends Tutorial posted by Jessi and what Bobbie Faye said.

 

Basically, I leave at least a 6-inch tail (because it's easier for me to have extra yarn to work with when I'm woring in the ends... I can always cut off what I don't need but I can't make more) and crochet over it for a couple of inches. Then when I come back to work in my ends, I weave it in the opposite direction with a blunt yarn needle.

 

When turning in the opposite direction, I do split some of the yarn, so that when I give the end a little test tug, it doesn't pull the whole end from the beginning and bunch up the work. I make sure it is "locked" as Julie mentions here. (When weaving with a needle, I don't see how it's really possible to avoid splitting some of the yarn, actually. You'd have to be so extremely careful about not splitting that you might as well pull it through with a hook.)

 

The down side is I've found it's nearly impossible to undo ends worked in this way, which means I wind up leaving all of my ends to work in last, in case I have to frog the project.

 

Here are a couple of links about the Russian Join, which sounds somewhat similar to what Colleen talked about. I have not yet tried the Russian Join.

http://www.geocities.com/mama_bear_007/Russian_Join.html

http://www.angelfire.com/wv/happyghan/russian.html

 

the last blanket I made, the ends kept poking out so I was glad for the knots.

This part I'm not sure I understand. Why would having knots make you not worry about the ends poking out? Becaue if the ends kept poking out and you kept cutting off the poking-out parts, you'd be getting closer and closer to the knot over time. And if the ends are cut too close to a knot, it will likely unknot eventually and you work would unravel.

[sjkmaurice]

Wow! That's a lot to digest at this moment, but I'll log back on tonight when I crochet some more and print some of that information. Thanks so much for all this!

 

 

This part I'm not sure I understand. Why would having knots make you not worry about the ends poking out? Becaue if the ends kept poking out and you kept cutting off the poking-out parts, you'd be getting closer and closer to the knot over time. And if the ends are cut too close to a knot, it will likely unknot eventually and you work would unravel.

 

I don't cut. Like a fool, I continue to weave in the ends in every time I wash it. Now, however, I'm going to see if those ends can be woven in better without taking the blanket apart.

[Donna]

I don't cut. Like a fool, I continue to weave in the ends in every time I wash it. Now, however, I'm going to see if those ends can be woven in better without taking the blanket apart.

Not foolish at all! But for non-crocheters that receive an afghan as a gift, they are most likely going to cut any stray ends, because they won't know anything about working them back in.

[dennymare]

I think it all comes down to personal preferences. I usually knot mine and haven't had any problems, but I can see the uses for the new novelty yarns out there.

 

Mary:cheer

[InStitches52]

I taught myself how to crochet more than thirty years ago. At that time almost every book I picked up said to knot and clip the yarn close to the knot. I hated that method from the onset. The darned knots always showed and could easily come untied even if I stitched over the ends first.

 

What really convinced me it was necessary to find a better way was when a friend brought me her grandmother's granny square afghan to repair. Oy, what a mess. Many of the knots had come undone and the piece had many raveled holes. It took me weeks to repair it. (I was either incredibly stubid or incredibly brave. )

 

I never wanted that to happen with my work so I came up with my own methodology for joining and though I do knot, they are very hard to find because I control where the knot lands. I seldom if ever have thread tails peeking out either because I weave in several inches of tail before clipping. Like Donna I do this after my project is complete.

 

I had never really thought about knotting as an issue; it never occurred to me not to knot. In reading this thread however, I can see how I could improve my method and rid myself of knots quite easily. The secret really is in the weaving in of loose ends. I'll give it a go. I know I would like the results better when working with thread.

 

As to the glue issue that started this thread, I wouldn't use them in crochet. Most of the fray check products I've used get stiff and would leave you with a scratchy spot and often will show even after they are dry.

[Aggie May]

When threading in ends of any sort, knots or not, thread colour into colour and stretch where you have threaded before cutting off the ends. Not doing this on a stretchy fabric, which is what crocheting and knitting are, is most likely why the ends pop out in the first place. It has nothing to do with knots.

As for knots, do what makes you happy and what gives you the finish you are looking for. Sometimes they are OK sometimes other methods are best.

Great discussion though and I have learned lots even after 50 mumble years of crocheting.

Have fun, thats what it is all about and if you have a useable item at the end, thats all you can ask.

Colleen.

[PaigeMarieSara]

There's no right or wrong answer to this question, I don't care what anybody thinks. If a judge at the fair only allows knotted items to win because she/he missed the knots, then I'd say those knots are hidden enough to not make a difference.

If I'm crocheting a tight stitch I'll weave, but if it's a loose stitch, I'll often tie a knot and put a tiny pinch of glue to hold that knot from ever coming apart. I've not had any issues.  Far as using glue after weaving in ends, I will use that on occasion not because I'm afraid the ends will come out and unravel my piece, rather because the very end will sometimes pop out and then fray.  It's a simple solution that works, and nobody should be told it's "wrong" or "right."    This is crochet, not math or science.

  

[DanaBivens]

I knot a lot and they are unsightly.  I am going to glue them under the stitch to hide them.  Don't really care if it is protocol or not.

[Donna]

Of couse, anybody can do whatever they want, but you are not supposed to knot. I never knot and I have never had any ends work loose. Working in ends properly and well so they don't come out takes practice. It's good if you can have someone experienced show you in person.

 

That's my

[LI Roe]

I also remember reading about glueing yarn ends also, but not sure where either. That lady would be shocked at me, since I tie my ends together and then crochet over the ends also. I know people don't like to knot ends but I have entered a couple of items in a yearly county fair and have won ribbons, even with tying yarns together, so I must be doing something right. Anyway, I know there is washable fabric glue so maybe that is what the poster (on whatever board it was) meant, maybe to dab a little on the ends to keep them from fraying.

 

And I wonder if she even crochets??

 

LI Roe

[crochetchronicles]

I will use a little bit of Fray Block over knotted ends when I am using thread that is silky. I then weave in the remaining tail into the work.

 

I usually just weave in the tails or crochet over the tails when using yarn. I have never had a problem with them coming unraveled.

 

Everyone has their own way of doing things. Do whatever makes you feel comfortable.