Lion Brand: when your size isn't your size (long)

[nightowl]

This grew out of a pattern rant thread in the Design Discussion section, but I felt it deserved a wider audience and as I'm not a designer myself I'd really like to hear what other pattern-following crocheters have to say.

 

The background: tropicallie complained in that thread that Lion Brand's directions for the Lush Lace Pullover in her size made it 1.5in smaller at the bust than stated. I went to have a look, calculator at the ready, and found it was the same for all sizes: they were all 1.5 - 2in too small. So I emailed LB about it and asked if they could clarify.

 

The good news: I got a reply the same day. The bad news: I've never heard such a ridiculous statement!

 

Here's what they said:

 

The numbers are not that far off, especially when you consider it's over the front and the back. There are times when the math simply doesn't work out in exact increments in a design and allowances need to be made for this. This becomes more necessary often in a complicated pattern like this where you need a set number of sts to join everything together at the yoke.

• How on earth can a pattern publisher justify instructions that make a garment 2in smaller than stated by saying it's

"not that far off"?

Throw away those gauge swatches, everyone, because they just don't matter any more!

 

• Why not give the true finished measurements instead of ones that are simply wrong? Made worse by the fact the unachievable sizes are repeated on the schematic!

 

• The reply is misleading, with its talk of the difficulty in getting the math to come out right in complicated patterns and the need to have a certain number of stitches for the yoke. Yes, if it were a complicated stitch pattern with a multiple of 13+4 or some such, I could understand the measurement being maybe a quarter-inch out. . . but the section with the problem is plain double crochet! The source of the trouble isn't the yoke; it's the too-severe decrease made when the patterned lower body switches to dc.

Here's what I wrote back:

 

Thank you for the very fast reply. I do appreciate it. However, I have to differ with you on the answer

 

Two inches (in one case) and 1.5in in the others is *quite* far off, in my opinion -- it's practically a whole bust size! I understand that in a complex stitch pattern the necessary multiple may not allow the exact measurement to be achieved, but this is plain double crochet we are talking about. Even a complex pattern surely shouldn't be more than, say, a quarter of an inch off.

 

In any case, why not have the pattern state the true finished bust size? Wrong measurements are just going to puzzle crocheters who will wonder why the sweater is coming out smaller than it should.

 

I appreciate that at the yoke you need to have the number of stitches stated. However, may I suggest an easy answer?

 

If the decrease at the start of the plain double crochet section were re-written to allow around another 5-7 stitches (varying with size), the sweater would match the pattern measurements. These few extra stitches could be decreased at the end to give the correct number at the yoke. Perhaps you might consider doing this?

 

Thank you again for the reply. I do hope you will consider amending the instructions as it is a lovely design.

 

I should have liked to have been much ruder but decided diplomacy was the best policy. I cannot believe that they believe what they're saying. . . and it would be so simple to correct! Gah!

[darski]

I love that pattern. I'm glad you warned me before I tried this.

 

You have to wonder what pattern companies are thinking.

 

They leave a bad taste in the mouth and that translates to bad feelings that just float around the crochet community and start to work against the company. WNTC and YKW?already hate this site and set people against it. they don't need this bad press in our community

[dsabol]

What is WNTC and YKW? Or...are you allowed to say?

[Natasha]

What is WNTC and YKW? Or...are you allowed to say?

 

What Not To Crochet and You Knit What? - two websites that post pictures of "bad" designs.

[zagraham]

Well done, Nightowl!

 

Beth

[MOBOGAL]

I completely agree that it is crazy! I just purchased a sweater pattern from LB, and was stunned by how strange the measurements for the pullover were. The "small" size had a finished bust of 33", but the finished sweater length and sleeve length were 26"!!! As I am a petite person, (with that bust size), those sleeves would be past my fingertips, and the bottom of the pullover would be past my derriere! I had a good laugh trying to imagine the very tall, rail thin, long-armed gal who is wearing that shirt! So I'm going to have to completely re-do the schematics to make the proportions right for me. I guess it pays to be aware and/or skeptical of all published patterns!

[eurolyons]

Because I'm a bit bigger than most commericial patterns are for, I have to make adjustments for me, period. I simply have never, ever, ever trusted any commercial pattern, sewing, crocheting or knitting measurements...I check and double check...my tape measure is my bestest best friend...

 

I agree that the answer back from Lion Brand doesn't sound like they are taking responsibility for their product...however, I've noticed that gauges on many patterns from EVERYWHERE is insanely off...makes me wonder how tight the designer is crocheting...I tend to crochet a bit loose...but man, I once did a small table cloth that was suppose to be 35 in in circumference and the end result was 25 " and I was using the size thread and hook called for. I had checked the gauge and it was right...I made another sample in a #3 thread (originally it called for a #10) and measurements were dead on...that's a big mistake if you ask me...

 

I just never presume (and I'm not saying that anyone who buys a pattern based on printed measurements alone is doing anything wrong...it stands to reason that one should be able to trust the measurements...) that the pattern is going to fit me as is...

 

I have more success in the end holding the pieces up to me, measuring and remeasuring, trying pieces on several times...it's kind of a seamstress approach to crocheting...

 

Anytime I don't want to have to deal with my tapemeasure, I make a nonwearable item...

[eurolyons]

Want to add further...years ago I went to a seminar on sewing and how to be more successful at completing your sewing projects to fit better. We all felt, the attendees and the people doing the seminar, that it was like there was a conspiracy almost with the commercial pattern companies against the hobby sewers of the world. Most of us approached sewing as buying a pattern, fabric, notions, and expecting that we would just lay the pattern pieces out on the fabric, cut out the pieces and then sew everything up and the garment would fit...like a puzzle...and even though the back of the envelope would have basic measurements for one to follow, and even if you followed those measurement, the average hobbyist sewer still wouldn't really go about making the necessary adjustments to the pattern first...why? Because quite frankly, it's time consuming...and it's a pita...but if one sews all the time, eventually that process becomes second nature and it's not so hard anymore...

 

So with that in mind, I take the same approach with crocheting and knitting...if you want your garments to fit you better, you cannot totally rely on any pattern you buy or get for free unless you design the garment yourself...you have to double check and try on and measure, measure, measure...it really separates the hobbyists from the professionals in the end...

 

Do I like that the commercial patterns (sewing, crocheting and knitting) can't be totally relied on from the gitgo? No...but because they go on averages (especially sewing patterns, but except for those pattern systems that will take full on measurements of your entire body) they can't account for everyone's unique body type...

 

I am not excusing Lion Brand's answer to the original poster's question...they are in the business with a majority of their customer who are hobbyist crocheters and knitters...and if they want people to use their products successfully, they should test and proof their patterns better...and not just them, but all the pattern companies and interest magazines who publish patterns, most especially for wearables...

 

I have the same gripe about off the rack ready to wear...the average sizing seems to be for a body type I swear doesn't exist...

 

What annoys me further is that it just doesn't seem to be good business practise...why set up the hobbyist sewer or crocheter or knitter so that they seem to fail at their endeavors more often than not...with the sewing seminar I attended 20 years ago, the stats for sewers starting a projects and giving up in frustration was staggering...that's alot of patterns, material and notions and time wasted...

 

And that's just for sewing...how many projects get started by a first time crocheter with a commercial pattern and they get discouraged and never finish their project, or if they finish and it doesn't fit, how many of those crocheters decide never to pick up their hooks again and try again? I bet there's a lot of them...and that always makes me sad.

 

Me personally, I'm on a mission to try to reach out to those that have the desire to learn how to crochet and make sure that they know what pitfalls to avoid...I want people to succeed...

[dsabol]

GREAT posts, Eurolyons!

 

My mom was a sewer, crocheter, etc. She got me into both, but I gave up in frustration after I sewed a beautiful skirt, that I was so excited to have, and it was huge in the waist and tight on the butt. I never sewed a wearable, again. Just stupid things like bears, purses, etc.

 

It started the same with crochet...but recently I made a skirt (I figured there was more room for "errors" if it was a skirt pattern, it'll still probably fit). I ended up being so concerned with making SURE it fit, that I did what you said. I measured, I tried on, I did alot of math trying to figure out how big it would be in the end. I guess I've graduated to a real crocheter, huh?

 

I did it out of necessity, though, because I thought it was always just me, but I KNEW it was going to be wrong if I didn't try. I'm a tight crocheter, by nature, so I always thought I just made my stitches too small. I've even gotten into the habit of using one hook size larger than what patterns call for, because that usually gives me the right gauge.

 

I guess it becomes alot of trial and error to learn how your style fits in with what these people publish. And I whole-heartedly agree with try it on, try it on, try it on. Measure, measure, measure, re-do, re-do, re-do.

 

My thought with the recent project I did all the measuring on, was that I wanted it so badly, I was going to do whatever it took to make sure it was right. Even if I had to rip row after row out (which I did a couple times).

 

But, now I have a beautiful skirt that everyone compliments me on...so it was worth it in the end.

[eurolyons]

You know dsabol, it's really the same with me...I want what I make to fit...I want the sleeve to hit where they are suppose to hit (I have short arms...) and man, the first time I made something with the right sized and lenghted sleeves, I was hooked on the power of my tape measure...

 

I made my own wedding dress...you wanna talk about wanting that project right...it was intense, but I set up rules for myself and definately borrowed the construction workers maxim, "measure twice, cut once..." I mean I look at my dress and I see a mistake or two, but the puppy fits!

 

I'm so glad you understood where I was coming from with my posts...

 

I held two Crochet Bees with members of my family...all attendees crocheted or had a desire to learn, but all of them had problems with doing patterns that didn't fit in the end...they knew nothing about gauge...they all just thought if they followed the pattern (and still did their own thing like substitute yarns and hook sizes) that the finished products would work out and fit it the project was a garment...first thing I spent time on was make friends with your tape measure...they've improved on their garment making now.

 

I meant to add too that until I went to that sewing seminar 20 years, I thought it was just that I had a weird body which necessitated me "customizing" everything I make...but the truth of the matter is, it's the companies that in trying to just put out what they think are average sizes, that are basically at "fault" if you will...they just assume that everyone is magically going to know to do the grunt work of customizing their patterns...

[darski]

All pattern basics are made in the Understanding that women are wider than they are deep. This is simply not true for everybody and is in fact rare. Most women tend to be round around. It doesn't matter what size you are, it is about overall tendency.

 

Pattern companies have made billions in thier mis-beliefs and they see no reason to engage reality. That is the mindset we need to understand before we pick up our hooks and our tape measures.

[eurolyons]

All pattern basics are made in the Understanding that women are wider than they are deep. This is simply not true for everybody and is in fact rare. Most women tend to be round around. It doesn't matter what size you are, it is about overall tendency.

 

Pattern companies have made billions in thier mis-beliefs and they see no reason to engage reality. That is the mindset we need to understand before we pick up our hooks and our tape measures.

 

 

Absolutely! It's really no skin off the pattern companies noses because they've already made the money off the pattern sold in the first place...and it's not like one's gonna go back and demand a refund on the pattern bought. Normally, in sewing anyway, the pattern's been discounted, which usually then means that you can't take it back anyway, and then on top of that, if the pattern's been cut, forgetaboutit...

 

I'm not sure what can be done about crochet and knitting patterns, other than a campaign to hammer on the companies for better standards...

[nightowl]

Very interesting posts, eurolyons and dsabol; thanks!

 

But I feel the point here isn't about whether published patterns are proportioned to fit a Ms Average Figure who doesn't exist, or refining the fit of a garment to make it look good on your particular body. It's simply that LB thinks it reasonable and defensible to offer a pattern that at the given gauge will be way off the stated size.

 

IMO they could easily have:

a) given the true finished bust measurement; or

b) amended the decrease so the work measures what the pattern says it should.

Instead they've chosen to give size information that is simply WRONG and the fact that they attempt to justify this is what's making me cross. . .

[eurolyons]

My particular point, in addition to what I was writing about is that it's not just Lion Brand having this problem or attitude with their patterns...it's a problem with ALL pattern companies...sewing, crochet, and knitting...

 

I do have a pet peeve with crochet patterns right now that do not seem to be tested or proofed by the yarn and/or pattern companies...too many typos and errors and the gauges being off...it just looks like the company gets the pattern and just publishes it without testing it first...still...regardless of that, I measure everything partly because of my body and partly because there's no such thing as a perfectly written pattern...

[darski]

In the article written by Jean ... in the "english crochet" thread, one bit of background noise that I got from what she said is that she only cared about getting a magazine out. She happened to be in the crochet mag business but that was just happenstance. I did not read any commitment to anything more than getting that job done. this is the attitude behind much of what we see.

[Ixa]

It is frustrating, but it must be frustrating for a designer too when you come up with a beautiful pattern that is doomed not to fit or look good on that many people. Every single person is so radically different and needs different ease, different sleeve lenth, neck hole, everything. There is no way to make a pattern to fit everyone's body or their preferences.

 

For example, I am much wider than I am deep and have absurdly long arms. So a design that works for other ladies who have posted already wouldn't work for me.

 

I cut designers slack when it comes to things like sleeves. They just can't account for a hundred different sleeve lengths! If the sleeves aren't long enough, I just make them longer. It's not like sleeves are hard to alter.

 

I think you just have to take responsibility for your project and make the effort and take the time to make it how you want it. It is possible. I'm glad to have the designers basic design to work with because I'm not good at that kind of thing. I am, however, excellent at adapting things for me so I can't really complain.

 

I think it's rather absurd to expect a pattern to fit every body type out there. It flat out can't be done unless it's a scarf.

 

Back to the original post: I definitely agree that it's ridiculous that they wouldn't change the measurements to reflect what they will actually come out to be.

[dsabol]

Nightowl, sorry, I was thinking it but didn't say it..(hehe)..I do agree with you and I'm frankly surprised that an actual error in their pattern has been pointed out to them and they won't even print a correction.

 

I got off onto a tanget with Eurolyons, but with regard to what you were saying, it's not that something is made to fit certain body types, they just have the gauge wrong in their pattern (or whatever their problem over there is). It's obvioulsy an error and they should at least take the time to review it and print a correction.

 

At any rate, I save the pattern because it IS a beautiful sweater, but I guess I'll make the next size up if I ever get around to actually making it. It'll be another one of those measure as I go kind of projects.

[crochetgoddess]

I am not a big Lion Brand fan. I do like some of their yarn but most of their patterns are so horribly written that I get so frustrated trying to understand what they mean that I just give up.

 

Good for you for writing them and telling them of their mistake and their reply back was not really even a reply but sounded more like a stock answer they give when someone notes something wrong with their pattern.

 

If I had a pattern out there, I would want someone to tell me what was wrong with it so I could fix it, but I think LB doesn't see it that way. And I agree that is so frustrating when you take time to check the gauge and get out the tape measure and get the garment done and it doesn't fit especially when it is not an error you made but rather one with the pattern.

 

Thank you for warning us about this pattern!!

[nightowl]

Just an update: I've had another reply from Lion Brand. It says:

 

Thank you. We will look at the pattern again.

 

I wonder if they will change it?

 

Smiles,

[Sylviaf]

It is hard enough to make clothes fit without measurement errors built into the patterns. I hope they fix it.