Is this yet another copyright violation?

[perigrine]

Hiya,

 

I have just found a listing in Ebay for baby beanies.

 

I recognised them straight away, because I have made several from the pattern, which is found here, and due to all the copyright dramas that seem to be happening lately, thought I should at least ask about it before emailing the seller (who may well be 'Auntie M') or 'Auntie M' herself - the flower does look different, though not the rest of the hat. I'm too nervous to look at the rest of her items for sale :s

 

Any ideas?

[viggie]

Her terms of use don't say you cannot sell finished items, don't think it's a problem.

[Daisy]

I'm not totally sure here, but I think that this e-bay auction/selling, is legal. She is selling the items that she made from a free pattern. She is not selling the copyrighted pattern itself.....just the goods made from it. It is my understanding that this is perfectly legal, unless the copyright actually states that the goods made from a copyrighted pattern may not be sold. I hope there is someone here that can clarify this.

[Krystal16]

No expert here, but every time I see a free pattern, it states you can use it for your personal use or donate the item to a charity, but it usually specifies that you can't sell/profit from the made goods.

[goldi316]

From what I can see, this appears to be legal. This person is not selling the pattern, and there is nothing in the copyright limiting what can be done with the product created from her patterns.

[Amy]

I don't have time to check out the item in question. However, a copyright holder does not have to state limitations on a pattern in order for them to be in effect. Copyright law gives a copyright holder complete control over all distribution rights of her pattern and derivative works from that patterns (translations, finished item, etc.).

 

You may not sell items made from a published pattern (whether or not the pattern was free), unless you have the express written permission from the copyright holder to do so. Some copyright holders choose to give that permission on the pattern itself. But if you don't see that information, you should assume you cannot sell your completed items made from that pattern unless you contact the copyright holder and ask for and receive that permission.

 

One point of copyright law is to protect the income flow to a copyright holder. Which means they have complete rights to control how anyone else can or cannot make income from their work. Copyright law does allow for someone to give away any items they make from a copyrighted pattern without seeking permission, but you still may not SELL items without permission of the copyright holder.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I do have this information directly from a local attorney who specializes in intellectual property law (copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc.).

[perigrine]

 

You may not sell items made from a published pattern (whether or not the pattern was free), unless you have the express written permission from the copyright holder to do so. Some copyright holders choose to give that permission on the pattern itself. But if you don't see that information, you should assume you cannot sell your completed items made from that pattern unless you contact the copyright holder and ask for and receive that permission.

 

Ok, so on that basis, and to give the copyright holder a heads up, I emailed her. What she decides to do is up to her, of course.

[busymomof7]

I don't have time to check out the item in question. However, a copyright holder does not have to state limitations on a pattern in order for them to be in effect. Copyright law gives a copyright holder complete control over all distribution rights of her pattern and derivative works from that patterns (translations, finished item, etc.).

 

You may not sell items made from a published pattern (whether or not the pattern was free), unless you have the express written permission from the copyright holder to do so. Some copyright holders choose to give that permission on the pattern itself. But if you don't see that information, you should assume you cannot sell your completed items made from that pattern unless you contact the copyright holder and ask for and receive that permission.

 

One point of copyright law is to protect the income flow to a copyright holder. Which means they have complete rights to control how anyone else can or cannot make income from their work. Copyright law does allow for someone to give away any items they make from a copyrighted pattern without seeking permission, but you still may not SELL items without permission of the copyright holder.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I do have this information directly from a local attorney who specializes in intellectual property law (copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc.).

Are you saying that the only things I can make and sell are items in which I designed the pattern myself, or have written permission from the person who published the pattern??? Does this mean that if I make a sweater or a poncho from a pattern on the yarn's label, or from a book that I bought, I can NOT sell that item?? WOW! If this is true, then there is a LOT of copyright violations going on out there! (Fortunately, not by me, thank goodness! I have only sold a few hairtoy organizers which are crocheted using a pattern I made. But I have considered making other things.)

 

I have given out free instructions for the hairtoy organizer I sell with the stipulation that it be used for personal use only and not be sold. I would NEVER take someone else's pattern and use it for profit when they have specifically requested that not be done. However, it never occured to me that patterns that do not have this stipulation should not be used for making items to be sold.

 

In fact, it would seem to me that companies that make yarn and give out free patterns would be thrilled to know that people are crocheting/knitting their items and selling them. All that yarn being bought would just add to their profit.

 

I am totally flabbergasted and dumbfounded and feeling quite ignorant. Also, feeling glad that I have learned this before making a big boo-boo!

[Amy]

There are many designers and pattern companies who will give you permission to sell items you make with their patterns, with no problems at all.

 

The way copyright law is currently written, you do not have the right to sell items you make with copyrighted patterns unless you have the express written permission of the copyright holder to do so.

 

Some patterns have that written permission included with them. Some companies have that written permission in a special place on their website (check for an area related to copyright). Others will give you the written permission if you request it via snail mail or email.

[Amy]

Oh, I forgot to say, that YES, there are indeed lots of copyright violations going on out there. But just because others are doing something, doesn't make it right for them to be doing it, as we all know. They may be doing it because they just don't understand copyright law. (Believe me, yes, it is complex and confusing, and it does give the copyright holders rights that some people don't believe they should have.) But ignorance of the law will not protect them if a copyright holder should decide to take them to court.

 

However, going to court is expensive, and most independent designers and even some small companies do not have the resources available to fund a lawsuit. So some people continue to get away with copyright violations.

[Amy]

For anyone who doubts that the information I have provided regarding copyright is correct, here is a link to a copyright page on the Yarn Tree store's website that basically states the same thing that I have been saying.

 

While they approach this from the direction of cross-stitch patterns, the same rules and guidelines apply there as they do to sewing patterns, knitting patterns, crochet patterns, etc.

[perigrine]

There are many designers and pattern companies who will give you permission to sell items you make with their patterns, with no problems at all.

 

The way copyright law is currently written, you do not have the right to sell items you make with copyrighted patterns unless you have the express written permission of the copyright holder to do so.

 

Some patterns have that written permission included with them. Some companies have that written permission in a special place on their website (check for an area related to copyright). Others will give you the written permission if you request it via snail mail or email.

 

wow..I mean..just wow

[busymomof7]

I really had no idea! I would never want to be breaking the law or infringing on someone else's rights. They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but frankly, I don't want anyone else stealing my ideas and using them to turn a profit. I would not in any way want to be seen as doing that to someone else!

 

A friend and I have just started having a booth at a local artisan's market which occurs monthly. Mostly we sell jewelry and hair accessories (hair sticks, bows for girls, crocheted headbands, etc) that we make, but we were going to add some hand-knitted and crocheted items (scarves, shawls, etc) in the upcoming months. Now I know to check and double check before I assume anything! I guess I will be looking for patterns that allow free usage, or asking for permission on copyrighted material, or making my own designs! I kind of like the idea of making my own designs up...makes it seem even more special and unique!

[busymomof7]

I happened to be on the Coats and Clark site looking at a pattern and I decided to search around and see what they said about copyright since this has been on my mind today. Apparently, this particular company does not mind if you use their patterns to make items to sell as long as you use their yarn. The only exception is when their pattern contains a trademarked item (cartoon characters, etc) that has been licensed to them. Just thought someone else might find this interesting! Here is what they say on their site: http://www.coatsandclark.com/our_company/privacy_legal.htm#guides

 

 

 

 

[busymomof7]

Last night I searched a few sites to see what different companies had to say about using their patterns to produce items for sale. I could not find anything specific to this issue on the Lion Brand web site, so I emailed them.

 

I am happy to report, that I received a prompt reply this morning! I was told that Lion Brand grants permission to sell any items made from their yarn and/or patterns. They only ask you do not sell the pattern itself. I was really happy to read that they have this policy.

 

Of course, if you have any doubts, it is always a good idea to ask.

 

My husband has worked in the printing industry for a while. He says that you would be amazed at the intellectual and artistic property that people want to copy or reproduce. He has to explain to those customers that is called "stealing."

[Yearnin' for Yarn]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I know copyright discussions are normally frowned upon on this site, but I think this is a very important issue, and this thread in particular has been extremely helpful. This is the site I go to for crochet topics, and as someone who has thought about selling a few things here and there, this is the perfect place for me to find out what is right and what is wrong. I have learned a lot from this thread and want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed and let us know what is and is not acceptable.

 

Thank you,

Nicole

[busymomof7]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I know copyright discussions are normally frowned upon on this site' date=' but I think this is a very important issue, and this thread in particular has been extremely helpful.

Nicole[/quote']

Because I am really quite new here, I had no idea that copyright discussions were controversial or frowned upon. I too, have found this all stimulating and informative. It definitely made me aware of some things I new nothing about and sparked me to investigate the subject more thoroughly. I especially appreciate the info and link given by Yarnaholic.

 

Please forgive me if I have in any way offended, or presssed a subject that is a sore spot for some here.

[Amy]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I know copyright discussions are normally frowned upon on this site' date=' but I think this is a very important issue, and this thread in particular has been extremely helpful. [/quote']

 

I just wanted to clarify that yes, for awhile, when some of the old moderator team was present, copyright discussions were off-limits. For some reason, this issue can tend to get quite heated at times.

 

However, we've since decided that most people here can manage to conduct a discussion on this topic politely and respectfully, even if they disagree on issues. Therefore, we revised our forum guidelines so there is no prohibition to discussion of copyright issues.

 

I agree with the rest of you that allowing discussions of this type is very educational for many of our members. There are some issues that many just never think about relating to copyright, and there's also a lot of misinformation that is presented in many places. I think it's very beneficial to allow discussion as long as people treat each other with respect, and as long as any misinformation that is presented is gently corrected.

 

I know that some people do not agree with the interpretation of copyright law as I have presented earlier in this thread, and as it is interpreted in the other link that I provided. That's all right---we don't expect everyone to agree with us.

 

However, we do expect that anyone who wants to present an alternative viewpoint be able to back up their opinions with verifiable statements by other attorneys who specialize in the field of copyright/intellectual property or by links to other reputable websites that specialize in this area.

 

I was very glad to see that some of our members took the time to contact yarn/pattern companies or to visit their websites to check out the terms those companies have for their copyrighted patterns. Thank you all for doing that and for sharing what you learned!

[goldi316]

I was very glad to see that some of our members took the time to contact yarn/pattern companies or to visit their websites to check out the terms those companies have for their copyrighted patterns. Thank you all for doing that and for sharing what you learned!

I have to add my thanks as well to this. One of the things that has always puzzled me about this issue has been the surprising number of people who seem to be unwilling to contact designers and publishers to seek permission. I have often seen them make statements to the effect that they will simply not buy those patterns if they can't do whatever they want with them. I have run into these folks (that make these statements) in several venues that I browse, it's not isolated to any one group or demographic that I can see, but it does always surprise me.

 

But then again, I've also seen people complain about errors in patterns, and recently discovered in a conversation with a designer of popular patterns (over an error I discovered in one) that even though the pattern had been available for years, I was the first person to have ever contacted her to point the error out! Her contact info is included on all her patterns, so the excuse that there was no way to contact her doesn't wash.

 

Are people afraid to contact these folks? Why? I don't get it!

 

Of course, then we have the problem of designers that never respond to queries. To be honest, I think that if they can't take a moment to respond to legitimate requests and concerns, then perhaps their work should be avoided anyway, as I would be concerned about being ignored if I ran into a problem with the pattern and needed help, ya know? The communication line needs to work both ways in order to benefit everybody!

 

In the meantime, perhaps this will help designers to remember to include some more specific info with their patterns regarding their copyrights, so that there will be less need for us to have to "bother" them for clarification. I think it would also be smart for those who HAVE received permission to sell and have put items out into a public domain such as ebay to have some kind of disclaimer to the effect that they have received permission from the copyright holder (and to be able to produce a copy upon demand). It might help to answer concerns such as the one that started this thread in the first place.

[perigrine]

I agree with the rest of you that allowing discussions of this type is very educational for many of our members. There are some issues that many just never think about relating to copyright, and there's also a lot of misinformation that is presented in many places. I think it's very beneficial to allow discussion as long as people treat each other with respect, and as long as any misinformation that is presented is gently corrected.

Yes, this thread has been VERY enlightening. I had been operating under the belief that anything I made from a pattern, gathered from where-ever, was fine to sell on. Obviously I was wrong. As someone used to say.."Assumption id the mother of all stuff ups"

 

Perhaps we could have a specific section in the forum to discuss copyright issues like this? (or would that be adding fuel to the fire?)