Do you think it's kosher to sell a finished product from a free pattern?

[Rachel Firestone]

Ok, I've been wondering this since I started crocheting. I'm a stay at home mom and I have 3 kids. My hubby works but we could definitely use another income. And I would love to make some kind of income from my crafting and crochet. I don't want him working any more than he is, because then he loses family time and we have a 9 month old son. My question is, If a free pattern does NOT ask that you not sell the finished product from their pattern, would you feel comfortable selling it? I've done a little searching and found that pattern designers have rights to the pattern/written instructions, but not the end result. But if I got a free pattern or a paid pattern that asked me not to sell the finished item, I would not sell it out of respect for the designer. And I don't want that kind of negative publicity and I'm not a dishonest person.

 

I would love to be able to design my own patterns, but I don't think I have a good enough understanding of the stitches and techniques of crochet to design my own, say, amigurumi (which I thoroughly enjoy making).

 

I, personally, wouldn't care what people did with the end product if I provided a pattern for the public. I just wouldn't want people to sell or distribute my pattern except through me and what ever means I chose to sell or offer my pattern. Like, if I chose to offer a free pattern of my own design through Craftsy.com, I'd want it only offer through there. But people would be more than welcome to link back to the site when telling people where they got the pattern.

 

So how do you feel about this subject? What about YouTube? I have yet to notice anyone's disclaimer stating the end product should not be sold. I'm guessing because the instructions are not written?

 

I would like to note that I have not sold, nor given away anything I have crocheted. Everything I've made so far has been put in a drawer or given to my kids

[SunnyInDenmark]

No, they're really not.  The laws are the same whether the pattern is paid or free.  Copyright/Terms of Use laws do not differentiate between the two.

Yes, you are right. Paid patterns have the same copyright as free patterns. You cannot sell someone else's pattern once it has been published. But only the pattern is copyrighted, not something you make by following their instructions.

 

What I was trying, unsuccessfully, to convey was that many paid patterns (and those published by big companies as yarnjeannie pointed out) have people's livelihoods and lawyers behind them so it is good to check whether they allow selling of projects from their patterns (in the Terms of Use as you, RedRose, mentioned). Free patterns usually don't have this and, in the case of my patterns, are available for the users to do with as they will as long as they don't reproduce the pattern elsewhere. Of course, if the author/designer has an etsy store or other outlet to sell their finished products, then those patterns would fall into the first category.

[Amy]

 

You all have been so helpful! The amigurumi dragon I've been making was from a YouTube video and the lady who made the video is German.

 

It's very possible that an amigurumi dragon would fall into the realm of copyright protection so that you would need permission, and perhaps even licensing arrangements (pay a fee) in order to sell items made from the pattern.

 

I definitely suggest contacting the designer before selling any items made from the pattern.

[Amy]

I found a free pattern on [source removed] for Stitch from Lilo & Stitch. Would that be considered unlicensed?

 

The pattern would most likely have been posted by an individual member of that website and not the website itself. In which case, I can practically guarantee the pattern is unlicensed.

 

Disney is very very strident about protecting its trademarks. If the pattern was officially licensed, they would require the person distributing the pattern to mention that it's an officially licensed product.

 

Disney doesn't even talk to individual designers and crafters.

 

It's possible somebody was somehow able to work out something with Disney outside of their usual operating procedures but I don't think it would be very likely.

[magiccrochetfan]

does it say it is licensed by Disney?  

[Rachel Firestone]

Yes, people sell many unlicensed crocheted items: Disney characters, Hello Kitty, SpongeBob, Minions, and so on. Perhaps some see others doing and don't realize there is a legal problem. Perhaps others are just hoping to make money for as long as they can until they get caught. If you sell through Etsy, Facebook, a blog, etc., if the IP owner reports the infringement to that company, the site hosting your site/shop can shut it down. Once you have a shop shut down on Etsy for infringement, you'll never be able to open another shop again.

 

I found a free pattern on [source removed] for Stitch from Lilo & Stitch. Would that be considered unlicensed?

[yarnjeannie]

I have seen free patterns on websites where the designer states items made may be used for charity items only and not to sell. Then some will say it is fine to sell finished products as long as they are not sold online. Each designer has a different outlook on how they want their patterns to be used.

 

Roe

Agree.  Always contact the designer/copyright holder and ask for permission.  It's what I did for Red Heart for their free patterns.  I got an e-mail back from them, which I've saved, so there won't be any question in the future about whether I can or can't sell items by Red Heart.

[Rachel Firestone]

You all have been so helpful! The amigurumi dragon I've been making was from a YouTube video and the lady who made the video is German. SunnyInDenmark, I know you mentioned some other countries have a lax policing "team" or don't really do much for keeping someone else's pattern off the widely available market. That concerns me that I should definitely do any research about whether the patterns I watch are from anywhere else. I know YouTube is extremely strict on allowing videos of television and movies posted on there. Like the general public posting tv show episodes will get pulled in a heartbeat because copyright laws. But if a network posts the same episode, they're allowed because they have rights to it to distribute it (seeing as they have rights to aire/distribute it on tv). I don't know if they're the same way with crochet patterns

[Amy]

When you want to sell items made from somebody else's patterns, there are two different things to consider: copyright and trademark.

 

Trademark

Trademark's a bit easier, so I'm going to cover it first. If the pattern involve's someone else's intellectual property (IP), such as a popular character (book/movie/tv show/comic/etc.), sports team name/logo, corporate logo, etc., then in order to legally distribute the pattern, the designer must make licensing arrangements or get other permission from the owner of the intellectual property. In addition to issues of trademark infringement (when a pattern is being sold), there are also issues of trademark confusion or trademark dilution (which can apply if the pattern is made available for free). Many people make unlicensed patterns available, but if they are ever caught by the IP owner, they can face cease and desist letters, have their websites and/or Etsy stores shut down, etc.

Let's say you bought an officially licensed pattern, like one of the Leisure Arts booklets featuring Mickey Mouse and friends. The license Leisure Arts arranged with Disney only covers sale of the pattern. It does not cover sale of any item made from the pattern. For that, you'd have to make your own licensing arrangements with Disney. However, Disney's licensing department won't even talk with home crafters: they require you have X number of years selling things and that you have $X amount of retail sales every year (usually in the millions of dollars).

Yes, people sell many unlicensed crocheted items: Disney characters, Hello Kitty, SpongeBob, Minions, and so on. Perhaps some see others doing and don't realize there is a legal problem. Perhaps others are just hoping to make money for as long as they can until they get caught. If you sell through Etsy, Facebook, a blog, etc., if the IP owner reports the infringement to that company, the site hosting your site/shop can shut it down. Once you have a shop shut down on Etsy for infringement, you'll never be able to open another shop again.

Copyright
 

Some of this can vary by the country in which you live. Some countries give design rights, in limited circumstances, which might mean you could not sell what you made from a pattern. I don't know the laws in every country out there, so if you live outside the US, please research the laws in your country.

In the US, there is a "useful article" exclusion to copyright law, which means you have the right to sell most items you make that fall in the useful article category (clothing, for example). You can go to the US Copyright Office website for details on what constitutes a useful article.

However, some useful articles might include artwork in them that could not be sold, because the artwork is subject to copyright protection. For example, some pictorial graphs might be original and unique enough to qualify for protection. Some artwork shapes might be so generic that they do not qualify for protection.

Some amigurumi patterns fall into a "soft sculpture" artwork category, and you would not be able to sell items made from the pattern.

 

There are many patterns out there for which there would be no legal restriction against selling the finished item made from the pattern. We can't give legal advice here about any individual pattern.

The best suggestion I have is to read through all the information on the US Copyright Office website and come to your own conclusions. In some circumstances, you may even want to consult with an attorney who specializes in intellectual property. Even better if you can find one who specializes in the fiber arts/visual arts.
 

[RoseRed]

There's no big deal about causing 'this.'  It's just how copyright conversations generally go around here.

[RoseRed]

Yes, you are right. Paid patterns have the same copyright as free patterns. You cannot sell someone else's pattern once it has been published. But only the pattern is copyrighted, not something you make by following their instructions.

 

What I was trying, unsuccessfully, to convey was that many paid patterns (and those published by big companies as yarnjeannie pointed out) have people's livelihoods and lawyers behind them so it is good to check whether they allow selling of projects from their patterns (in the Terms of Use as you, RedRose, mentioned). Free patterns usually don't have this and, in the case of my patterns, are available for the users to do with as they will as long as they don't reproduce the pattern elsewhere. Of course, if the author/designer has an etsy store or other outlet to sell their finished products, then those patterns would fall into the first category.

 

 

What I was trying to convey is that the Copyright and the Terms of Use Licensing Statement are two different things.  The ToU is usually included in the Copyright Statement.

 

And yes, there are a lot of free patterns out there that do not have a ToU.  There are also pay for patterns that do not include one.  A lot of the time it's simply because people don't know to include it. 

 

And then you fall into the murky waters of 'useful items'. 

 

Copyright is a huge category with lots of details and unless it's a major corporation (especially when dealing with Trademarks) there really is no one to force you to follow what you read.  Etsy has it's own little gang of 'copyright police'.  They troll the website and report any and all 'infractions'.  One of the biggest problems with this is that the people that do this - don't really know what the law states - nor do they care.  There is a difference between Legality and Morality.

[SunnyInDenmark]

Sorry for the confusion.  I didn't mean to cause this.  

 

The part where you say if the designer has an etsy store or other sales site, their patterns fall under the category that only the pattern is copyrighted or that you may not, obviously sell their pattern as well as sell the product after you have made it from their pattern?

 

I have seen people post paid patterns, scans of patterns from books, and the like on their own personal blogs and on other crochet forums.  Sometimes this is to ask for help, sometimes it is to offer a tutorial for beginners.  Crochetville is very good about not allowing posts for copyrighted materials, but other sites are not.  Some of the worst culprits seem to be from Eastern Europe and Russia where enforcement of copyright rules appears to be more relaxed.

 

Only patterns can be copyrighted.  That applies to all patterns.  It is illegal almost everywhere in the world to distribute copyrighted patterns as your own.  

 

This does not apply to projects made from patterns unless the author specifically says so.  Sometimes this information is difficult to find or the author hasn't thought to include it with their pattern.  However, it is up to the author of the pattern to enforce any copyright or terms of use infringement.  I have seen many violations on Etsy and other sites (selling a pattern as their own that can be traced to a different publisher; people selling items from well known patterns that have a "do not sell projects" clause; video tutorials freely published to explain how to make paid patterns; etc).  Some of these get taken down while others remain up today.  Someone who is selling patterns and projects made from their patterns is more likely to police themselves.  It is better to err on the side of caution by contacting the author before selling something made from their projects.  Of course, if you're going to sell something at a craft fair thousands of miles from the author, there's not much they can do to prevent it.

 

I think my safest route is to, of course, never sell or distribute someone else's pattern, even if it's free and available to the public. I will always direct the person asking, to the original site I downloaded it from. 

 

You are very nice for doing this.  Not everybody is so ethical.  I have been in contact with some of those people.

 

And there's no paperwork needed to copyright a design, it's automatically given a copyright in the US as long as that's where it was created, correct?

 

This is true in the US (and a few other countries with rigorous copyright laws), but only applies to the pattern/design, not something made from the pattern.  The burden falls on the author to state if there are more limitations to their use.

 

SunnyInDenmark, I really appreciate your offer to sell the items from your patterns. That's really sweet of you. I'll take a look at your websites And if I do end up selling something of yours, I will absolutely give credit where credit is due! Which site do you normally prefer people to credit you?

 

Of course!  I really believe in freedom of information on the internet but also to credit the original authors of the information.  

I only have one website (http://suviscrochet.blogspot.com).  The other links in my signature are alternative methods of finding my patterns depending on your preferred search source.

 

______________

Again, sorry to stir up controversy. I have been burned in the past with people taking credit for things they did not create.  I have also seen copyright power be abused and extrapolated to areas that are/were not explicitly covered under the Terms of Use.

[Rachel Firestone]

very true, LI Roe. It all depends on the designer & their preferences

[LI Roe]

I have seen free patterns on websites where the designer states items made may be used for charity items only and not to sell. Then some will say it is fine to sell finished products as long as they are not sold online. Each designer has a different outlook on how they want their patterns to be used.

 

Roe

[Rachel Firestone]

SunnyInDenmark I'm a little confused about your reply. The part where you say if the designer has an etsy store or other sales site, their patterns fall under the category that only the pattern is copyrighted or that you may not, obviously sell their pattern (I never even considered the idea of selling or sharing someone else's pattern, even if I asked) as well as sell the product after you have made it from their pattern?

 

I think my safest route is to, of course, never sell or distribute someone else's pattern, even if it's free and available to the public. I will always direct the person asking, to the original site I downloaded it from. And if it's no longer available, apologize and say I cannot give it to them. Because even though it isn't available any longer, a copyrighted item/document, etc is copyright for 150 years after it's creation or 150 years after the creator's death (If I recall the US's law on copyrights. I just don't remember which one.) And there's no paperwork needed to copyright a design, it's automatically given a copyright in the US as long as that's where it was created, correct?

 

And these questions are just theoretical. I don't have any patterns I intend to make something & sell from, I'm just asking for future reference. I hope to be able to design my own patterns and avoid the headache all together. But if the designer clearly states that I may sell the item after I make it, I may do that, but if it's a questionable subject, I'll avoid pursuit completely.

 

SunnyInDenmark, I really appreciate your offer to sell the items from your patterns. That's really sweet of you. I'll take a look at your websites And if I do end up selling something of yours, I will absolutely give credit where credit is due! Which site do you normally prefer people to credit you?

[RoseRed]

Free patterns, however, are fair game as long as credit goes where credit is due.

 

No, they're really not.  The laws are the same whether the pattern is paid or free.  Copyright/Terms of Use laws do not differentiate between the two.

[SunnyInDenmark]

I am a new crochet designer and have been approached by people asking if they could sell the finished products from my patterns.  I told them that they could, as long as they gave me credit for the pattern in the product description and linked back to my webpage with the pattern for those who are interested.  

 

If it's a paid pattern, I would email the designer and ask for permission.  Free patterns, however, are fair game as long as credit goes where credit is due.  

 

I can't help you with pricing.  I've never tried to sell any of my works.  I usually just give them away to loved ones.

[Rachel Firestone]

Wow. That's gotta be expensive! I don't know that I would sell something so large. I'd probably stick with amigurumi, granny squares and appliques. At least until I got my name out there like on Etsy

[RoseRed]

The next time you make an afghan - try counting how many hours it actually takes you.  Multiply that by $10 an hour.  Do you know anyone that would pay that much for an afghan?

 

I'm the wrong person to ask what I would charge.  I had someone offer me $50 for an afghan that cost more than that in yarn.  I told them I'd throw it in my burn pit before I sold it that cheap.  And I would've.

 

I don't sell finished items.  I don't have the patience for it.  That's not to say that I haven't bartered.  The times that I have - I was very happy with a fair exchange.

[Rachel Firestone]

That's a very good point! I live in Northern VA, a few minutes from WV so it's a more country style area versus somewhere more high end. So most people around here won't pay high price for something handmade (or commercially made, for that matter, lol). I think there might be a little less appreciation for that sort of thing here. But we have a flea market a few miles away and it's like $10 to rent a table.

 

But given my location, I tend to sell a lot more online. I find that it's a lot easier to manage an inventory that way. With flea markets and yard sales, I have to have my physical inventory out and organized. Plus I need a vehicle to transport everything, which we don't have right now

[Granny Square]

What you can sell an item for depends on your area and the venue.  If you sell new items at a 'garage sale', people won't want to pay more than 50 cents for anything.  You'll probably do better at a 'craft fair' (although in my area I've seen people selling things for prices that barely cover their yarn value), and get even more if you can sell them in a boutique/tourist trap sort of shop.

 

Workmanship is important, but don't forget that you may be looking at patterns differently than a non crafty consumer.  Often I'm drawn to a pattern because it has a challenging (or currently popular) knit or crochet technique, but not necessarily because I'd use or even want the end product (non crafters might not see the appeal).  You might be able to get (a little) more for a scarf with a pretty stitch pattern versus on in plain SC or DC for example, but not necessarily for a more difficult pretty stitch (bullions) versus a simple pretty stitch (shells).

[Rachel Firestone]

As I see it, a lot of people crochet these days and a lot have been doing it for decades, so they can probably look at a completed item and figure out what stitches to do. I just designed my first applique just by looking at a picture because I couldn't find a free pattern. It needs some adjustments, but I've only been crocheting for maybe 6 months & I was able to recognize the basic stitches used in the photo I saw. So I can't morally charge a ton of money for something when there's so many talented people that could re-create the same thing just by looking at it. But I feel like I could charge a little more for pieces with more complicated stitches like the bullion stitch, since I was told a VERY helpful trick from one of the awesome members here I googled the bullion stitch and didn't find that video, but she did.

 

My problem is, I can get a design in my head, but for the life of me, I can't get the end result to look like the picture in my head

[Rachel Firestone]

RoseRed this is true. I figure, I don't pay all that much for the supplies, so I wouldn't charge an arm & a leg for the finished product.  I usually buy the Red Heart Super Saver (364yds) @ Walmart for like $3. And my hooks, I don't really care about getting a return on those because they were less than $2 each. On that note, What would you charge for a finished item of your own design, verses one from a widely available pattern that you're allowed to sell?

[RoseRed]

You're talking about the Terms of Use clause in a copyright statement.  If you have access to the ToU and the limitations then you are agreeing to them before you use the pattern.

 

On the other hand - there really aren't any copyright police to come after you if you choose to do it anyway.

 

The problem with selling is that most people don't want to pay what handmade items are really worth - the time or the materials.

[Rachel Firestone]

Sweet! Thank you for letting me know. I'll have to check out their patterns

[yarnjeannie]

Speaking of Red Heart, I've actually contacted them and they do allow you to sell items made from certain patterns (I think Red Heart has a certain line of patterns they do not want you to sell finished items from).  They just ask that you use Red Heart yarns to make the items.  You would have to e-mail Red Heart to see what the limitations are.  They get right back to you.