I've been scalped...

[Granny Square]

Rose Red, that must have been a shock to find that pattern. I'm not sure which afghan we are talking about (I'll go back and read all the posts) but let me tell you a little story...a couple of weeks ago I decided to dust off some OLD patterns I'd clipped from magazines in the 1970's, I don't go thru these very often and tend to forget what's in there. I was quite startled to see an afghan pattern that was VERY much like one of yours. I am a thousand % sure that you didn't copy even the idea from this 40 year old magazine, but it just goes to show that clever people can come up with the same great idea independently of each other--hopefully this was the case for the pattern you found.

[Amy]

I posted a picture of the potholder and did get a lot of inquires for the pattern. Some people were pretty persistent but I followed the rules and never gave the instructions out. I just stated that I had given the potholder away and my notes weren't all that great. I didn't know at that time, how else to refuse giving the instruction out.

 

The easiest thing is just to say that since you created your project by trying to duplicate a picture of an existing pattern, Crochetville's guidelines won't let you share your pattern with anyone. You can always refer people back to the original pattern, if you remember anything about it.

 

For those who are persistent, just ask them to contact me with any questions or concerns they have about our guidelines related to copyright issues. And if they keep on persisting after that, please forward me a copy of the PMs or emails you've received from them.

 

If they're that persistent with you, chances are they're also asking other people to share patterns behind the scenes. If somebody has a pattern of doing this, I really need to know about it. I'll talk to them gently at first, let them know why our guidelines don't permit what they're doing, and tell them nicely that they need to stop or they risk losing their Crochetville account. If they keep persisting with others even after I've talked with them, showing that much disrespect and disregard for our forum guidelines, then I really need to know so I can protect this site by deactivating their account. (Account deactivation is a last resort that is taken only after someone again and again shows they don't intend to follow our guidelines.)

[Amy]

Reminder: We do not want to get a case of "mob mentality" or "copyright police" going, with a group of people who want to contact the designer of the second pattern in question with accusations of copyright infringement.

 

Therefore, we are not going to identify either of these patterns that started the original discussion. If you have somehow figured out which of RoseRed's patterns we are discussing, please do not post that information publicly in the thread.

 

I really do not want claims of copyright infringement directed toward the other designer to arise from Crochetville, as we have no proof at all that copyright infringement has occurred and a very good argument can be made that the pattern in question could be the other designer's completely original idea.

[RoseRed]

Rose Red, that must have been a shock to find that pattern. I'm not sure which afghan we are talking about (I'll go back and read all the posts) but let me tell you a little story...a couple of weeks ago I decided to dust off some OLD patterns I'd clipped from magazines in the 1970's, I don't go thru these very often and tend to forget what's in there. I was quite startled to see an afghan pattern that was VERY much like one of yours. I am a thousand % sure that you didn't copy even the idea from this 40 year old magazine, but it just goes to show that clever people can come up with the same great idea independently of each other--hopefully this was the case for the pattern you found.

 

and I thought I was being so original. Wow - I guess that everything really has already been done. Thank you for being gentle with me

 

Edited to add: I have never taken a class with this person. However I believe the book (which at the time I bought it was self-published) had a "no items sold unless with permission of [book author]" in it. However, I do not know if newer versions of the book have that statement.

 

I don't see how the author or publisher could lay claim to any pattern that's not in the book. Granted - we're not talking about crochet but to say that you can't sell anything based on the technique is over reaching - at least I think it is.

[TheKnottyMale]

I won't waste time going into specifics, but I know exactly how you feel. And just like yourself, I got some pretty solid advice from Amy.

 

I got over it, but i'll never forget it.

[Aggie May]

:eekI think I have posted here before about a pattern I made up about 35 years ago.

I took several different pattern stitches for cables, bobbles etc and created what I though was an original Aran pattern for a mans vest.

I made lots of them and sold them at Craft Markets and also sold the pattern to a women's magazine.

(Still have the original one I made for my husband.)

Several years later, I came across the same layout of stitches in an old American magazine which I had never seen in my life before.

Granted, it was a cardigan and mine was a vest but really, the body was exactly the same other than the neckline.

There was no way that the cardigan pattern was copied from my version and there was no way that mine was copied from the magazine version so I just put it down to Synchronicity (sp).

:thinkI do have to say though, I have been disappointed to see a pattern, that I wrote and sent via a PM to someone on Crochetville, published and sold as belonging to that person.

I will also make no reference to the pattern or the person because I have chosen to do nothing about it.

It is their problem not mine that they chose to not just pass the pattern on for free as requested by me.

:thinkNo, it is not my RR or any other pattern which I have posted on Crochetville.

Copyright is surely a tricky problem but let me say, do not loose too much sleep over this issue.

You will be the one with the stress wrinkles, not the person who may or may not have copied your pattern.

Have fun.

Colleen:hug

[Amy]

I do have to say though, I have been disappointed to see a pattern, that I wrote and sent via a PM to someone on Crochetville, published and sold as belonging to that person. I will also make no reference to the pattern or the person because I have chosen to do nothing about it. It is their problem not mine that they chose to not just pass the pattern on for free as requested by me.

 

No, it is not my RR or any other pattern which I have posted on Crochetville.

 

Colleen, I am absolutely appalled that another Crochetville member would DARE to do such a thing.

 

If I knew who had done this, and had proof that they had done it, this member would lose their Crochetville account faster than they could blink! I would also have encouraged you to contact the magazine to let them know what happened, so they would know never to do business with this particular person again.

 

If you would like to let me know who it was, even if you no longer have the proof of the pattern you sent to them (like the sent copy of the PM that you could forward to me, or a PM thank-you from the person confirming they received the pattern, or any post they made on the forum thanking you for the pattern), I can at least make a note of what you say has happened, in case there are ever any other future claims against this member for copyright infringement. In lack of hard evidence, I can sometimes use an established pattern of behavior to take action when necessary.

 

I understand if you'd rather not tell me who this member is. But if you ever want to, I just want you to know this is something I would take very seriously. :hugMy PM box is open anytime!

[HappyOldCro]

That's what scares me about this copyright stuff for patterns. I have learned many techniques and some of them are very basic stitches, how does one know if they are making a pattern that someone else made before or if their idea is in actuality original?

It is too deep and scarey for me. Take tapestry crochet for example, it is single crochet carrying another colored thread under the first thread to facilitate the changing of colors when creating a design or picture. There is no other way to do it, so when someone comes up with a different design with different colors, are they infringing on the copyright, is it the picture created or the color that is protected? The technique is standard and the only way to acheive the final product. The same goes for Overlay crochet, Irish crochet, broomstick lace or hairpin lace and many others. The basics are all the same. So is adding exta stitches, spaces or rows a variation, a copyright infringement or something original. It is such a grey area....

Another is, say there are 2 women, both wanting to make a sweater with worsted weight yarn, one uses a G hook the other an H. They are using a double crochet stitch.

If they are the same size, the number of stitches per row could be the same depending on the tension used. If one makes the sweater a row longer, or uses a different color, is it the same sweater? Even if one uses shells and the other a hdc for the trim, is it the same with a deviation? Or are they both original? I don't know, who does????

I think pattern writers are very creative people and deserve alot of respect, I just don't know how these patterns can be protected, or what defines them as original or an adaptation.

I feel bad for RoseRed and wish there were better answers. I wish someone could make the grey into black and white for her and others.

That is what keeps me from posting alot of things I create and make on my own.

[Amy]

That's what scares me about this copyright stuff for patterns. I have learned many techniques and some of them are very basic stitches, how does one know if they are making a pattern that someone else made before or if their idea is in actuality original?

It is too deep and scarey for me.

 

I feel bad for RoseRed and wish there were better answers. I wish someone could make the grey into black and white for her and others.

That is what keeps me from posting alot of things I create and make on my own.

 

Please read what I wrote earlier in the thread. I know the thread has gotten long, so you may be posting before you've read all the responses. But there really isn't anything to be scared about.

 

To clarify: If you sit down with nothing but pencil, paper, yarn, and hook, and come up with something all on your own (without any attempt to duplicate something you've seen somewhere else, although you can be inspired by things you've seen), then it's your original work. You can feel safe publishing your pattern. It doesn't matter if somebody has already published something similar. Your idea was still your original idea, and you have the right to publish it.

 

But just as you may have come up with something that is actually similar to something else already created but that you've never seen, it's also possible that somebody else in the future will come up with something similar to your creation, although they've never seen yours. Their creation is still original to them, and can be published without any infringement upon your creation.

 

It all boils down to whether you know you came up with it on your own or if you know you were attempting to duplicate something created by someone else.

 

Granted, this means we have to be somewhat trusting and take others at their word if they say they haven't seen an already existing work, because we'd want others to extend that same courtesy to us.

 

Also, in case anyone missed it: it turns out that there have been two patterns very similar to RoseRed's pattern, that were published decades ago. Just as we trust RoseRed that she never saw either of those other two patterns, we would have to trust that the newer designer never saw RoseRed's pattern if she were to make that claim. This just serves to show that it's possible for people to come up with very similar ideas completely independently, and nobody is infringing upon anyone else.

[Amy]

As far as what defines something as original versus an adaptation: that can be pretty easy.

 

If you're referring to another pattern as you develop yours, your end result is probably an adaptation.

 

If you sit down with nothing but yarn, hook, paper, and pencil, and try to come up with something on your own, then it's original. (Even if it ends up looking like something else, as long as there was no deliberate attempt to make it look like something already in existence.)

[RoseRed]

:thinkI do have to say though, I have been disappointed to see a pattern, that I wrote and sent via a PM to someone on Crochetville, published and sold as belonging to that person.

I will also make no reference to the pattern or the person because I have chosen to do nothing about it.

It is their problem not mine that they chose to not just pass the pattern on for free as requested by me.

:thinkNo, it is not my RR or any other pattern which I have posted on Crochetville.

 

It's amazing what people do. I'm not going to ask which pattern or who. I am curious tho - was the pattern published exactly as you sent it or was it rewritten into his/her own words?

 

Copyright is surely a tricky problem but let me say, do not loose too much sleep over this issue.

You will be the one with the stress wrinkles, not the person who may or may not have copied your pattern.

Have fun.

Colleen:hug

 

As usual - you're right. You always have good advice.

 

Also, in case anyone missed it: it turns out that there have been two patterns very similar to RoseRed's pattern, that were published decades ago. Just as we trust RoseRed that she never saw either of those other two patterns, we would have to trust that the newer designer never saw RoseRed's pattern if she were to make that claim. This just serves to show that it's possible for people to come up with very similar ideas completely independently, and nobody is infringing upon anyone else.

 

Tell me about it - that really burst my bubble. and I thought I was being so original. I do have to admit tho- it does put things in a better / different perspective for me.

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Let's remember to keep pattern references out of this convo - we've already been warned once and I'd hate to see this conversation get shut down.

[HappyOldCro]

As far as what defines something as original versus an adaptation: that can be pretty easy.

 

If you're referring to another pattern as you develop yours, your end result is probably an adaptation.

 

If you sit down with nothing but yarn, hook, paper, and pencil, and try to come up with something on your own, then it's original. (Even if it ends up looking like something else, as long as there was no deliberate attempt to make it look like something already in existence.)

 

Thanks Amy, you have clarified that quite well. Unfortunately, my problem (and perhaps that of many elderly crocheters), is that having been taught by memory from an elderly grandmother sometimes the boundaries between pattern or no pattern, original or memory are blurred. Grandma was close to 50 when she taught me and I have 60 years of crocheting under my belt, that can add up to approximately 100 years of memorized stitches, techniques and patterns. Pattern books were rare to own back when and were sometimes passed around or memorized. I have seen hundreds of them over again under new names and new creators/authors.

I often wonder if a pattern, based on one of these oldies has been reproduced with new copyrights, and a stitch or design of my own would be challenged by them. It is not that I copied from a pattern, but an idea I had, based on the memory of a possible memorized design from NaNa....

Therefore I keep most of my OOAKs to myself, rather than risk the battle.

[Amy]

It is not that I copied from a pattern, but an idea I had, based on the memory of a possible memorized design from NaNa....

Therefore I keep most of my OOAKs to myself, rather than risk the battle.

 

I think you'd still probably be okay in most cases with claiming something as your original work. Once all the stitch patterns and techniques are in your head, milling about with each other freely, you're likely to put things together in a way that are different from whatever original you learned. Of course, some things are so basic (a granny square, a circle, etc.) that there's really only one way of doing them anyway.

 

I highly doubt you'd ever run into trouble from the companies that publish books, magazines, and so on, or a professional crochet designer. After all, those who are considered professionals in the industry usually have a pretty good understanding of copyright issues.

 

You'd be more likely to run into trouble from a hobbyist crafter who came up with something they thought was truly original, published it on their blog, and then might think you copied their idea. Not realizing what was so fresh and brand-new to them had also been thought of already by many others through the years, and would still appear to others in the future as an idea that seems brand-new and fresh to them.

 

But I also understand not wanting to have to deal with people who could get upset with you because they don't have a good understanding of basic copyright law. So if you're more comfortable not sharing patterns for what you've designed, that's perfectly all right. Although I hope you'll share pictures of what you've created!

[CrochetinMama]

Sorry that happened to you RoseRed..

[RoseRed]

You'd be more likely to run into trouble from a hobbyist crafter who came up with something they thought was truly original, published it on their blog, and then might think you copied their idea. Not realizing what was so fresh and brand-new to them had also been thought of already by many others through the years, and would still appear to others in the future as an idea that seems brand-new and fresh to them.

 

Hey! I resemble that remark

[Amy]

Hey! I resemble that remark

 

Sorry, RoseRed, I wasn't referring to you specifically when I said that.

 

But it seems some people are still worried that if they post something they've come up with all on their own, if it bears any resemblance to something already in existence, somebody else is going to think they've infringed upon their rights.

 

Hobbyist crafters generally don't have as thorough an understanding of copyright laws and issues as do professionals in the industry, mainly because they just don't have access to the legals teams that the professional publishers (and by extension those who design for them) employ. So most instances I see of people getting really upset with somebody else for infringing upon their rights, seem to originate from hobbyist crocheters.

 

It's possible the professional designers get just as upset, but have private conversations with the legal teams of their publishers, and either realize there isn't any issue or handle things quietly.

 

You and I have both seen instances of designers who try to drum up public support and agreement that one of their designs has been infringed upon, and then have their friends go leave comments on the other person's blog, accusing them of infringement. In just about all of the cases I've seen, it's hobbyist not professional designers who have encouraged this, and frequently about issues where there either definitely isn't any issue of infringement or there isn't any kind of proof infringement has occurred.

 

I just want to reassure everyone that if they come up with an idea all on their own and want to publish it, they should feel free to do so. They shouldn't worry at all that a big publishing company with lots of money is going to come after them and sue them for infringement. They do need to realize that it's possible a hobbyist could be upset with them, but that shouldn't make them afraid to publish their own work. If you believe something is your own original idea, just keep notes of how you've created something, and be strong in your conviction that you didn't set out to copy anyone else.

 

There is no reason at all for anyone to be scared to share what you've come up with all on your own, as long as you are confident that you haven't set out to copy somebody else's work.

[RoseRed]

Sorry, RoseRed, I wasn't referring to you specifically when I said that.

 

No need to be sorry, hun - it's the truth. I know you weren't BUT you coulda been.

 

It's possible the professional designers get just as upset, but have private conversations with the legal teams of their publishers, and either realize there isn't any issue or handle things quietly.

 

I'm an Indie. I won't consider myself a professional designer until I'm published. I guess I really need to start submitting patterns so I can achieve my goals.

 

You and I have both seen instances of designers who try to drum up public support and agreement that one of their designs has been infringed upon, and then have their friends go leave comments on the other person's blog, accusing them of infringement.

 

Oh, yes we have. That just ugly.

 

I just want to reassure everyone that if they come up with an idea all on their own and want to publish it, they should feel free to do so. They shouldn't worry at all that a big publishing company with lots of money is going to come after them and sue them for infringement.

 

There is no reason at all for anyone to be scared to share what you've come up with all on your own, as long as you are confident that you haven't set out to copy somebody else's work.

 

She's right. I didn't copy my design from either of the resources that two others found, one just yesterday in a vintage knitting mag she picked up off of eBay. She couldn't believe it. That one was a little bit different - BUT the point is - it's the same basic idea.

 

Because I came up with this on my own I don't have anything to worry about. Stick to your morals and ethics and you won't have a problem. If someone points something out to you - you can be as disappointed as I was that you weren't as original as you thought.

 

Still - this has been a wonderful learning and growing experience for me. Thank you all for being a part of that.