I've been scalped...

[RoseRed]

... and it really doesn't feel very nice.

 

We talk a lot about copyrights here. Mostly about sharing patterns or making something similar. This is the first time that it's happened to me.

 

I just came across a pattern similar to one of mine posted somewhere else. There are several similarities, but there are also a number of differences.

 

So - what do I do now? Do I contact the person? Do I let it slide and go on with life? I didn't go hunting anything down - I just stumbled across it.

 

I have to say that it really surprised me. I thought it was someone just showing off what they made from my pattern at first. I don't even know exactly how I feel about it yet - I just know that I don't like the way I'm feeling about it right now.

 

Please do NOT pm me and ask for who it is or a web address. I won't even reply. This post has nothing to do with starting up a Copyright Mob. I'd just really like to know how other people feel and what they do when this happens to them.

[Titus2woman]

I'm so sorry to read this. (((((RoseRed)))))

[RoseRed]

Just so that you guys know - Amy and I have been discussing this post. She's going to let it stand so long as we can maintain a civil conversation about it. She also edited the post to remove any trace of the pattern we're discussing.

 

Let's also remember that no one here is a copyright lawyer and none of this is legal advice - it's conversation.

 

Copyrights, the future of any designing I may do, legal and moral ramification and ethics have been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I feel as if I am at a crossroads right now. I really do hope that we can have a good conversation here.

 

This conversation falls into the realm of 'At first glance it's the exact same pattern' but the pattern is not the same. A different number of stitches, a difference tension and swatch size, a different number of repeats and totally written in someone else's words.

 

Based on this - it's possible that there is absolutely no 'copyright infringement' based on the differently worded pattern. What part would fall under derivative works? It looks exactly the same until you really pull it apart.

 

The other thing I've been thinking about with this is - there are so many 'similar' patterns. Where does one draw the line and say it's different enough to stand on it's own? (This is an ethical question for me)

 

Last year one of the big companies had a contest. Finished works were voted on a couple times - I don't remember the specifics. What I do remember is that there was a VERY specific looking baby ghan based on an old pattern. The company accepted it and it was voted thru to the top. This was someone else's version of it and obviously this large company has copryright attorney's on staff and it was ok with them.

 

(I really hope someone with a better memory than me remembers the contest that I'm talking about so I can stop being so vague)

 

I would like to thank Amy for allowing this thread to happen. She could've easily shut it down in hopes of avoiding a witch hunt. So, let's please remain within the realms of civil conversation here.

[vonnie]

I would be very upset, It does seem like there is a very fine line to what is an infringement on a copyright, does just changing one thing make it different? How much do you have to change? I would never sell a pattern for this very reason.... I am so sorry that someone hijacked your pattern... hugs to you and please keep sharing with us...

[Tampa Doll]

Sorry to hear about this. I don't know what to say, as you say we are not copyright attorneys.

I just know, I would calm down first, think my words thru and then contact the person.

Just my opinion:hook

[Miss Crochet]

RoseRed, it's a toughie.

I know your pattern - the one in question - and to my mind, it's "your" pattern. Not that it's any compensation, but yours has been around a lot longer and for many regular crocheters and/or people active on crafting forums, you will be linked to the piece as the creator.

 

It's very hard to draw the line on these issues. Because copyright varies from country to country, one would have to hope that a crafter would have the decency to know where to accept credit and where not to. For example, I have a tutorial for the Kitties-in-a-Row babyghan on my website. It isn't my pattern - I don't know whose it is, I have three versions of this saved in my bookmarks from three different websites, each version with slight variations. I was told that this is an OLD pattern - from the 70s or 80s? What I did was prepare a clearer photo tutorial than any other version I could find on the internet. On my webpage I clearly state that it's not my original design and I clearly state that it's a visual tutorial, as opposed to an original pattern. I have not entered it in the Ravelry database under my designs - because it's not. But what I don't mind sharing are the photos and instructions to help others follow the pattern better. That, to my mind, is ethically ok.

 

Anything I have designed has been designed (written up and photographed) from scratch but sadly I don't think that any of my designs are so blindingly original that no one will create a derivative work from them. Not that this is an excuse to "recycle" my ideas and present them as your own. All I can hope for is that people will share some common decency when using them.

 

By the way: I recently came to the end of two digital subscriptions for crochet magazine and I didn't renew them. Frankly, I was kind of tired of seeing the same old thing every month. It seems that a lot of ideas are recycled and revamped on a regular basis.

[Amy]

I have seen both patterns in question, and looked at things closely.

 

This involves stitch pattern and technique issues, neither of which can be copyrighted. It is also possible that the other designer came up with her idea never having seen RoseRed's pattern. Just because many here at Crochetville might be familiar with her pattern, it doesn't mean that every crocheter is. This particular thing is something that would be very easy for someone to come up with as an original idea, if they were inspired by the same type of original source as RoseRed was when she created her afghan.

 

Let's say that the other designer has never seen RoseRed's pattern. Her idea was completely her own based on some other non-crocheted-object she saw somewhere. In that case, it doesn't matter how similar her pattern might be, there is absolutely no issue of copyright infringement.

 

However, even if she has seen RoseRed's pattern, in this particular case, since we're talking stitch pattern and technique, I also don't think there's any issue of copyright infringement. It's more an issue of seeing an idea/concept and then going off and making it your own.

 

Yes, in this case, it would be nice to give credit to the original source of your inspiration. However, it's also possible for a designer to see some crocheted object one year, really like it, the not think of it again for quite a long time. If the idea return to them several years later, it's quite possible to forget that you ever saw it anywhere, and think it's your own original idea. So even if the designer saw the original pattern a long time ago, she/he may still honestly think what they came up with is their own original design.

 

Whenever a designer thinks something like this may have happened with a pattern, my suggestion would be to contact the other designer with a friendly note. Say you like their pattern, and mention that you came up with something similar at an earlier date. Just casually inquire if that designer ever saw your work. If they say they haven't, you'll probably have to take that at face value. (Your only other option would be to pursue things legally, which I would advise against.) If they admit to knowing all along they had seen your work, or after seeing your work now they realize they had seen it a long time ago, you could nicely ask that they give you credit as inspiration for their pattern. You could even work this to be of mutual benefit to each other: each provide a link to the other's website, taking advantage of backlinks and SEO to help build your search engine site rankings.

 

I just want to make sure everyone understands that this particular case is not an issue of someone making an effort to make a very close duplicate of RoseRed's idea. (My thoughts and suggestions would be somewhat different in that case.) It's very unclear whether the new designer has seen the existing pattern, and even if the designer has, I still don't believe it's an issue of copyright infringement at all. Only possibly an etiquette issue of providing credit to a source of inspiration, and that's only if the new designer remembers having seen RoseRed's original pattern.

 

Edit to add disclaimer: I am not attorney. What I have posted is merely my opinion, and should not be taken as legal advice. If anyone ever runs into an instance where you think someone has committed copyright infringement against one of your patterns, and you want an official legal opinion on how best to handle the situation and/or to help determine if infringement has even occurred, you need to consult an attorney. (I think everyone knows that!)

[Amy]

For example, I have a tutorial for the Kitties-in-a-Row babyghan on my website. It isn't my pattern - I don't know whose it is, I have three versions of this saved in my bookmarks from three different websites, each version with slight variations. I was told that this is an OLD pattern - from the 70s or 80s?

 

As I understand copyright law, in the case of the Kitties in a Row blanket, it is a stitch pattern that gives the appearance of kitties, along with color changes. (If it's all one color, you lose the effect of the kitties.) A stitch is something that can't be copyrighted, meaning nobody else can ever use the stitch pattern in a design.

 

As long as you write your own instructions, you should be good.

 

This is a similar example as to what has happened with RoseRed's pattern.

[RoseRed]

I'm so sorry to read this. (((((RoseRed)))))

 

I would be very upset, It does seem like there is a very fine line to what is an infringement on a copyright, does just changing one thing make it different? How much do you have to change? I would never sell a pattern for this very reason.... I am so sorry that someone hijacked your pattern... hugs to you and please keep sharing with us...

 

While I thank you all your your sympathies (and they do mean a lot) that's not really what this thread is about.

 

Sorry to hear about this. I don't know what to say, as you say we are not copyright attorneys.

 

I just know, I would calm down first, think my words thru and then contact the person.

 

Just my opinion:hook

 

I am surprisingly calm about this. Really more contemplative than upset.

 

 

RoseRed, it's a toughie.

I know your pattern - the one in question - and to my mind, it's "your" pattern. Not that it's any compensation, but yours has been around a lot longer and for many regular crocheters and/or people active on crafting forums, you will be linked to the piece as the creator.

 

It's very hard to draw the line on these issues. Because copyright varies from country to country, one would have to hope that a crafter would have the decency to know where to accept credit and where not to. For example, I have a tutorial for the Kitties-in-a-Row babyghan on my website. It isn't my pattern - I don't know whose it is, I have three versions of this saved in my bookmarks from three different websites, each version with slight variations. I was told that this is an OLD pattern - from the 70s or 80s? What I did was prepare a clearer photo tutorial than any other version I could find on the internet. On my webpage I clearly state that it's not my original design and I clearly state that it's a visual tutorial, as opposed to an original pattern. I have not entered it in the Ravelry database under my designs - because it's not. But what I don't mind sharing are the photos and instructions to help others follow the pattern better. That, to my mind, is ethically ok.

 

Anything I have designed has been designed (written up and photographed) from scratch but sadly I don't think that any of my designs are so blindingly original that no one will create a derivative work from them. Not that this is an excuse to "recycle" my ideas and present them as your own. All I can hope for is that people will share some common decency when using them.

 

By the way: I recently came to the end of two digital subscriptions for crochet magazine and I didn't renew them. Frankly, I was kind of tired of seeing the same old thing every month. It seems that a lot of ideas are recycled and revamped on a regular basis.

 

Olivia - thank you for keeping within the guidelines that Amy's set for this thread. It is very appreciated. I have an older book glossy pics and the patterns in black and white with the Kittens in a Row pattern.

 

One thing that I have noticed is that there are a bunch of new patterns coming out online and in the magazines and thru AA and LA that are square patterns that are made in strips. I think that is so cool. Can I claim credit for being the first one to come up with the idea - I highly doubt it. But I still think it's cool.

 

The other thing that I'm thinking heavily about is the Diamond Ghan pattern on my blog. So many of us fell in love with Yarncat's baby diamond ghan and she couldn't share the pattern. I suppose that to look at it - it's just about the same. There's a LOT of differences in my pattern and you can't copyright the idea of diamonds built into the fabric. There's bunches of those floating around.

 

I didn't make an exact duplicate of the pattern. I merely picked up my hook and played with it until I came up with something that laid flat and looked really good. I could go thru the list of differences but I think you guys get my point here. I truly and honestly followed Cville's guidelines on making 'your own version' of a pattern.

 

Did I do the same thing that's bothering me today?

 

Let's think about round ripples for a moment because it really is the same thing. I have NO idea who created the first one. Just about everyone with a designing bone in their body has created their own version of it. I have - I make my centers a certain way because I don't like them being too open.

 

Does a pattern like the round ripple, that has so many versions floating around, warrant a different outlook than the rest of other patterns simply because it's become so popular?

 

At what point do we get to 'everything has already been done' and the rest are imitations of something that someone has already seen before?

 

It truly is entirely possible that this person came up with it totally on their own and never saw my pattern. My own personal leanings is that this is probably not the case but I am holding onto the thought that it really could be.

[RoseRed]

I just want to make sure everyone understands that this particular case is not an issue of someone making an effort to make a very close duplicate of RoseRed's idea. (My thoughts and suggestions would be somewhat different in that case.)

 

Altho in this case it very well could be. That's just too much accusation for my taste tho.

[Miss Crochet]

It truly is entirely possible that this person came up with it totally on their own and never saw my pattern. My own personal leanings is that this is probably not the case but I am holding onto the thought that it really could be.

 

Well, that may be the case. Sometimes we see something somewhere but don't consciously register it ... some time later you produce something that you think is really brand-new and original - but it's not! Let's hope this was the case here, just an honest mistake.

 

Essentially, I think my plea would be: credit where credit is due.

If you create a pattern inspired by a known author's work, it would be nice if you referenced this in your own pattern. Aside from everything else, I think it would be interesting for the person who sees your pattern to see another variation of the same pattern or see what inspired you. It would be even nicer if you contacted the known author to give them a head's up: "I've been inspired by your pattern for the Original Afghan and have produced a derivative. I hope you don't mind, here's the link" (but I doubt that that would ever happen. Still, it would be courteous.)

 

I guess I would like to live in a sweet and shiny world of crafting fairness and decency . It's hard nowadays because the Internet has promoted a mass of freely-available information and just as many people have forgotten where to draw the line around their personal sphere, many others have kind of forgotten the concept of personal property (be it intellectual or physical, e.g. patterns, photos, text, quotes) because it's just there for the taking and there's no way of policing who takes it and how it is used.

 

So I guess we have to continue to appeal to the basic niceness of the crafting community ...which is why a thread like this is important. It's important that other crafters see that it can be hurtful if someone feels that their hard work might be used or abused, even if done unintentionally.

[Amy]

Altho in this case it very well could be. That's just too much accusation for my taste tho.

 

There are too many differences between the two patterns for the new one to be an attempt to exactly duplicate the original.

[Red67]

:)I am very sorry this has upset you...and wish you well...I am not a copyright expert..just someone who has crocheted for over 50 yrs (ooops (sigh) age giveaway)..and have seen so many many patterns that have been recycled in magazines and now online..that i remember them way back as being designed by other people...a few stitch changes, hook and yarn changes and people take it on as their own...its sad...its wrong...and one of the main reasons i do not subscribe to magazines for crochet any longer...

 

....One good example: Dot Matthews (lovely lady) designed the

Little Ditty Bag..I have lost count on the numerous Ditty Bags people have taken credit for..and the original started with Dot..

 

Wishing you well...and comfort in knowing people appreciate your beautiful original designs...and that life is so terrible short...enjoy each moment of crocheting and life that you can.....and you are here to develope more designs...For those who have offended you..they truly know what they have done..not worth a thought IMHO

[RoseRed]

I hate to skip out in the middle of a good conversation but real life is calling. I'll be back later.

[Amy]

The other thing that I'm thinking heavily about is the Diamond Ghan pattern on my blog. So many of us fell in love with Yarncat's baby diamond ghan and she couldn't share the pattern. I suppose that to look at it - it's just about the same. There's a LOT of differences in my pattern and you can't copyright the idea of diamonds built into the fabric. There's bunches of those floating around.

 

I didn't make an exact duplicate of the pattern. I merely picked up my hook and played with it until I came up with something that laid flat and looked really good. I could go thru the list of differences but I think you guys get my point here. I truly and honestly followed Cville's guidelines on making 'your own version' of a pattern.

 

Did I do the same thing that's bothering me today?

 

 

Without seeing these two specific diamond ghan patterns, and just based on what you described, this would indeed be the same thing as what happened with your pattern, if the new pattern designer had seen your pattern. At least in my opinion.

[cat3crazy]

However, it's also possible for a designer to see some crocheted object one year, really like it, the not think of it again for quite a long time. If the idea return to them several years later, it's quite possible to forget that you ever saw it anywhere, and think it's your own original idea.

 

I don't design but with all the patterns on the Internet, I can understand how this could happen. I have a lot of patterns and find myself discovering a "new" pattern only to find that I already have it. This has happened to me several several times. I have also seen older patterns recycled in current magazines.

 

It has to be difficult for a designer not to be influenced by other's work. With all the crocheted items & patterns on the Internet and in books one would practically have to live in a cave not to see crocheted items.

[RoseRed]

Without seeing these two specific diamond ghan patterns, and just based on what you described, this would indeed be the same thing as what happened with your pattern, if the new pattern designer had seen your pattern. At least in my opinion.

 

I've never seen yarncat's pattern. If you wanted to - you'd have to get it from her.

 

Do you think this is the same thing as all of the round ripple patterns as well?

[Amy]

I've never seen yarncat's pattern. If you wanted to - you'd have to get it from her.

 

Do you think this is the same thing as all of the round ripple patterns as well?

 

No, I don't need to see the pattern. I was just making the comparison that as you developed your diamond ghan pattern from seeing pictures of items created from the other diamond ghan pattern, this designer could have developed her pattern just from looking at a picture of your item, without paying any attention to the actual pattern instructions.

 

Let me ask you: do you think something would be different about round ripple patterns? Or straight ripple patterns? Or granny square patterns? Or a hexagon pattern?

 

Nobody can own the general idea or concept of a round ripple pattern (or any other basic type of shape). There are only so many ways to write up instructions for a basic round ripple, just as there are only so many ways to write instructions for a basic granny square or a circle or a beanie cap. There are countless patterns out there for those things, none of which are infringing unfairly upon any other pattern. Of course, you can come up with some unique patterns for parts of these objects, so some parts of an individual pattern might be deserving of copyright protection.

[Peggy85225]

Ive written very few patterns but the ones I have written have taken me weeks to finish as I agonize over trying to get them as perfect as possible. I'd hate for someone else to take the credit. I've written two based on round afghans ripple and otherwise and one based on squares from my own visions but if they resemble one already in existence it's purely coincidental.

[schwarz]

I don't know the two patterns in question but I will say this...I did an entire afghan with 12" squares in which I created the 'pattern' simple by going with the flow and doing a certain stitch on this row, a pattern in this row, etc. I go online a few years later looking for patterns for a new afghan and discover that my 'crochet as I went pattern' was already written by someone else. Had I seen this block or pattern before? No. Was I surprised that a pattern existed for pretty much the exact same square? Yes.

What I'm getting at is that there are only so many ways you can put together stitches to create a 'pattern'. There are SO many patterns out there now that I don't think anything is really original anymore. While RoseRed does deserve credit for HER pattern, I wouldn't get so upset about something that looks 'similar' but has such an obviously different pattern (or so it has been implied in this thread). At the same time, there are many, MANY different ways to create the same effect. While one way is a certain pattern, another way is another pattern. Just my $.02.

[Amy]

Ive written very few patterns but the ones I have written have taken me weeks to finish as I agonize over trying to get them as perfect as possible. I'd hate for someone else to take the credit. I've written two based on round afghans ripple and otherwise and one based on squares from my own visions but if they resemble one already in existence it's purely coincidental.

 

Even though your pattern was all based on your original ideas, you still recognize that it's possible (because it involves the basic round ripple shape) that it could resemble work already created by someone else. Yet you still haven't infringed upon that person because your creation is all your own.

 

And it's possible that somebody else in the future will come up with something similar to yours, yet again all based on their own original work, so they won't be infringing upon you, just as you weren't infringing on others.

[Amy]

I did an entire afghan with 12" squares in which I created the 'pattern' simple by going with the flow and doing a certain stitch on this row, a pattern in this row, etc. I go online a few years later looking for patterns for a new afghan and discover that my 'crochet as I went pattern' was already written by someone else. Had I seen this block or pattern before? No. Was I surprised that a pattern existed for pretty much the exact same square? Yes.

 

And even though someone had already created something very like your creation, you could still publish instructions for what you created, without any worry about infringing upon the other person's copyright.

 

Would the other person worry that you had copied their idea? Possibly. That's why it's a good idea, when creating something you intend to publish (whether for free or for sale), to keep any notes you've made along the way. Even if it's just hand-written chicken-scratch on a napkin that you file away somewhere. Then you can go back and have something to show that your work is your own.

 

Just think how you'd feel if the person who created the earlier work came and accused you publicly of deliberately copying their work, when you honestly and truly hadn't ever seen it before? You'd feel pretty rotten, I'm sure.

 

At some point, when someone claims their work is their own, and we don't have any hard evidence to prove otherwise (such as a public statement that they're making an attempt to copy something), then we have to just take that person at their word.

 

This is the reason we don't allow threads to degenerate into copyright-police, mob-mentality "go after the infringer" pile-on fests.

[papersmiles]

What an interesting and thought provoking thread. It certainly got me to pondering about many areas of pattern use and writing. I often "doodle" with crochet possibilities when I see a pattern I like or a combination of stitches that look good together. I never really thought that I might be "plagarizing" someone else's work. The look of some part of a pattern appealed to me and so I "stuck" it into something I was crocheting. Since I don't publish my "doodles" I suppose there is no harm done.

 

With the information highway of the internet growing larger and larger I think it becomes tremendously difficult to develop patterns that are TOTALLY unique. I have been a collector of vintage pattern books for many years and have noticed that recently there seems to be a surge of current designs that are very similar to the vintage patterns of 40 plus years ago. Is the similarity intentional or it is merely coincidental. I don't have a clue.

 

Publishing of anything in today's market is a rather nerve wracking endeavor whether it be a pattern, book, poem or new method to catch mice. I just hope this experience doesn't discourage anyone from giving it a try if that is what "floats your boat"...smiling.

[Amy]

Publishing of anything in today's market is a rather nerve wracking endeavor whether it be a pattern, book, poem or new method to catch mice. I just hope this experience doesn't discourage anyone from giving it a try if that is what "floats your boat"...smiling.

 

I hope the discussion doesn't discourage anyone from writing their own patterns if that is what they want to do.

 

Generally, if when you get ready to write your pattern, you sit down with nothing but yarn, hook, paper, and pencil, and you're trying to come up with something of your own and not purposely trying to copy something of somebody else's, everything should be okay!

[annmcc1976]

I'm sorry this has botherd you Rose, While i do not know what pattern your talking about. nor Do I want to know. as it's NOMB. but If it were me.. just for my pice of mind and sanity. without Pointing fingers n getting mad I'd just Simply email the "designer" and strike up the conve "where you come up with this" n see what they say. then when they say.. just explain "your friend" designed something similar a while ago and you were just currious to their insperation behind their design.

 

I"m no designer.. althou I have made up 95% of my afghans on my own. without patterns. and before I realy had any internet to Look at patterns. I just bought yarn and crochetd my afghan till I was ready to do the next color n then once i saw what I like i did my own Continue of the color pattern i was doing.

 

I have thought of going back and Disecting my ghans (with my eyes) and Trying to write out the pattern for what i did to come up with it.. but I have not just for this reason.

 

I am so afraid that I will run inot this issue that Maby my subconsious has seen this somewehre an I'll be Infringing on someone., even thou I nver searched for a crochet pattern till about a year ago when I join C'ville.. but I do not know if that makes any of the afghans I made "My own design" if they do Then Awsome. if not then no biggie.

 

You realy have to do what your heart tells you to give you a pice of mind.

 

If many of the ville'rs know the pattern in questiong then they know who it belongs to and I guess in the long run. That is all that matters.

 

Hugs to you!!!