Copyright on flannelghan pattern?

[Amy]

I'm getting the sense that since some people don't agree with the copyright of not selling finished items on the internet that hey it's ok if people do it because well there going to so why bother even ask them not to. I'm sorry but that's not right. There are many magazine patterns and patterns in books that have the same rules why is it such an unreasonable request on a designers part to ask that others not profit from their design work. Just because you don't agree with a rule doesn't mean you should say it's ok if others break it I have respect for other designers and I would never sell a finished item if they tell me they don't allow it it's the right thing to do.

 

Copyright law may or may not give you the protections you think it should regarding sale of finished objects. Since different attorneys have different interpretations of the law, it's going to take a case going all the way through a trial before we know exactly how the copyright law will be interpreted by judges in this case.

 

However, Crochetville encourages members to think about the designer's wishes about how their pattern is used, and to follow the terms the designer sets. It goes beyond copyright law, to the spirit of showing respect for other people and what they have created. If you don't like a designer's terms, then don't use their patterns. If you choose to ignore a designer's wishes about use of their pattern, then please don't post about it here.

 

Of course, not everyone will respect a designer's wishes. So each designer has to decide whether having restrictions on sales of finished items brings them enough benefit to deal with all the issues those restrictions bring. Some will decide restrictions cause them too much personal aggravation, so they adopt the attitude of Jean Leinhauser and Rita Weiss, and allow people to do whatever they want with items crocheted from patterns they publish. Other designers will decide the benefits of their restrictions are of sufficient value to them to keep the restrictions in place.

 

Just out of curiosity, would anybody like to talk about the benefits you receive from restricting sales of finished items? And what harm you feel you would incur if you didn't restrict sales of finished items? The answers will probably be different depending on whether you're selling a pattern or giving it away for free and whether or not you're actually selling finished items made from the pattern.

[Amy]

Oh, and just to add another monkey wrench into the whole copyright discussion, in some countries (such as the UK), copyright law DOES specifically extend into design protection for patterns.

[RoseRed]

And then i have seen people say because someone used A certain stitch on something that they were using so and so's pattern, (see that a lot on a couple other forums) because they were selling an item with the same stitch. By that i mean blankets, scarves, things that its kind of hard to tell if you are using a common stitch.

 

I think sometimes people go a little far, SOME patterns are very CLEARLY recognizable, BUT i dont understand how someone thinks that because items look similar they are automatically someone else's pattern. Look at all the SAME items for sale on esty, how can you honestly tell the same style hat patterns one from another? They all look alike to me.

 

If you know the designer you point it out to them and let them decide if it's infringement.

 

Sometimes you can tell them apart. I can tell a lot of different patterns from each other. Most especially if I've worked the pattern.

 

 

Also what happens when you have someone who can look at a picture and come up with their own pattern from looking at a picture (so wish i could do that) What happens then?

 

I can look at a pic and replicate a pattern. I choose to keep it in my personal and private files and I don't share it. I'm certainly NOT going to submit or publish someone else;s pattern and call it my own.

 

I have seen it done tho. Plenty of times.

 

I guess what i am saying is i agree with copyright, i just honestly dont understand how it can really be enforced since crochet stitches are fairly easy to deduce and unless its a very unique item (like the flannelghan) how can you be sure its someone else's pattern?

 

It doesn't really matter if we agree with it or not - technically, it's the law. Unless you register the work it can't be enforced. Websites have changed the way they handle infringement as well. Now most of them need to be contacted by the copyright owner - not just Joe Blow off the street somewhere who points it out.

 

You can't be sure - you need to notify the designer and let him/her handle it.

 

 

HONESTLY makes people not want to share, and i dont blame them

 

Hasn't stopped me from sharing.

[RoseRed]

The only time I've had a problem and had to ask anyone to remove an item made from my pattern was actually a free pattern I have that was made in Honor of my Mom who died of breast cancer. I contacted the person & they tried to tell me it wasn't from my pattern then I contacted the place they were selling and it was removed either they had a heart or they were made to remove it either way it turned out good.

 

That's a very personal and near & dear to your heart type of pattern. I'm glad that it worked out for you. It was probably 'the place' that had it removed.

 

 

I'm getting the sense that since some people don't agree with the copyright of not selling finished items on the internet that hey it's ok if people do it because well there going to so why bother even ask them not to. I'm sorry but that's not right. There are many magazine patterns and patterns in books that have the same rules why is it such an unreasonable request on a designers part to ask that others not profit from their design work. Just because you don't agree with a rule doesn't mean you should say it's ok if others break it

 

I have respect for other designers and I would never sell a finished item if they tell me they don't allow it it's the right thing to do.

 

I don't know.

[RoseRed]

yup regardless of what is spelled out in copywrite. people are going to do what they want regardless, some just do not care,

 

in soem cases like me, I do not have the money to keep buyin yarn and spendin out of my pocket to make for strangers (after seeing things I make for friends), so

 

I personaly rather stick with asking a person to purchase what I'll need in yarn to make a item that is from a pattern.

 

You're right - some don't but I think the majority of people do. I prefer to see the good in people.

 

Unless it's a gift, friends can buy their own yarn too. It's amazing how many requests I've had to make things that just fizzled away when I said "Sure - when do you want to go Michael's and buy the yarn for it?"

[RoseRed]

Copyright law may or may not give you the protections you think it should regarding sale of finished objects. Since different attorneys have different interpretations of the law, it's going to take a case going all the way through a trial before we know exactly how the copyright law will be interpreted by judges in this case.

 

I have a feeling that that probably won't happen - at least not in the situation that we're discussing here. Independent designers post a Term of Use in their copyrights. It requires having the pattern registered, a true case of infringement and the money to pay the lawyer fees and the desire to go that far with it.

 

 

Some will decide restrictions cause them too much personal aggravation, so they adopt the attitude of Jean Leinhauser and Rita Weiss, and allow people to do whatever they want with items crocheted from patterns they publish. Other designers will decide the benefits of their restrictions are of sufficient value to them to keep the restrictions in place.

 

I can't speak for any of the other designers here but I don't think it's a balanced comparison. I mean, you're talking about iconoclastic designers that turned publishers that head the crochet/fiber arts world today.

 

While JL may have no problem letting people do whatever they want with a finished product - why do the magazines have the 'For personal or private use only' terms of use? What is the magazine losing from people selling finished products?

 

Just out of curiosity, would anybody like to talk about the benefits you receive from restricting sales of finished items? And what harm you feel you would incur if you didn't restrict sales of finished items? The answers will probably be different depending on whether you're selling a pattern or giving it away for free and whether or not you're actually selling finished items made from the pattern.

 

Unlike chiscrochetcrazy - I don't sell finished products in my etsy store. I sell the patterns for them. I have, however, been commissioned (I love that word) to make my own patterns for people.

 

As far as people selling the finished products online or making a couple up and putting them on ebay- I just don't like the idea of it.

 

Yes, there are some patterns that I hold near and dear to my heart. The flannelghan is one of them. It was my first real pattern. It's an extension of me. I love the CAL and everyone who loved it enough to make it and share. The color combination's are endless. I don't like the idea of it being sold thru an auction house or an online store somewhere.

 

(You never said the answers had to make sense in a business sense.)

[RoseRed]

Oh, and just to add another monkey wrench into the whole copyright discussion, in some countries (such as the UK), copyright law DOES specifically extend into design protection for patterns.

 

not going there hun. The laws in this country are confusing enough

[Amy]

not going there hun. The laws in this country are confusing enough

 

I totally agree! I just wanted to bring that up so people are aware we're pretty much discussing things from a US-copyright perspective, and that things can be different in other countries. I don't know enough about laws in any other countries to have a useful discussion about what is and isn't okay outside the US.

[Amy]

As far as people selling the finished products online or making a couple up and putting them on ebay- I just don't like the idea of it.

 

Yes, there are some patterns that I hold near and dear to my heart. The flannelghan is one of them. It was my first real pattern. It's an extension of me. I love the CAL and everyone who loved it enough to make it and share. The color combination's are endless. I don't like the idea of it being sold thru an auction house or an online store somewhere.

 

(You never said the answers had to make sense in a business sense.)

 

I'm really glad we're having this conversation here at Crochetville. I think it can help designers and crocheters develop a better understanding of each other's position.

 

For me, it all boils down to respecting other people and following their wishes. I don't believe we're entitled to use whatever we see just because we want to. This is completely separate from what may be legally allowed, as there are plenty of things allowed by law (totally unrelated to the subject at hand) that I personally believe to be unethical. I will respect whatever terms a designer places on a pattern, whether or not I would have implemented those terms myself. That is my personal moral and ethical code, and simply the choice I make for myself. Others are free to make choices based on their own personal codes.

 

I've been thinking about this long and hard lately on a personal level, because I have a bunch of patterns I plan to publish next year under the Crochetville label. I've finally decided what I want to do regarding Terms of Use for those patterns. I'm happy to share that decision if anyone wants to know what it is, or I can let the conversation continue without my input, and share later.

[crochetaholic74]

If you know the designer you point it out to them and let them decide if it's infringement.

 

Sometimes you can tell them apart. I can tell a lot of different patterns from each other. Most especially if I've worked the pattern.

 

 

 

 

I can look at a pic and replicate a pattern. I choose to keep it in my personal and private files and I don't share it. I'm certainly NOT going to submit or publish someone else;s pattern and call it my own.

 

I have seen it done tho. Plenty of times.

 

I WOULD NEVER DO THAT, BUT what the point i was trying to make is lets say you see a scarf for sale, you dont have the pattern but you make one similar to it from your head, can you NOT sell it because you got inspired by the picture from someone else's pattern?

 

 

 

It doesn't really matter if we agree with it or not - technically, it's the law. Unless you register the work it can't be enforced. Websites have changed the way they handle infringement as well. Now most of them need to be contacted by the copyright owner - not just Joe Blow off the street somewhere who points it out.

 

You can't be sure - you need to notify the designer and let him/her handle it.

 

 

I am aware it does not matter if i agree, I WAS stating that i do agree with it, much like everyone else has.

 

 

 

Hasn't stopped me from sharing.

 

Its the reason i dont share, i know that once its on the internet you cant take it back and you cant really control it. All it takes is one person to not do the right thing,So i just choose to be selective with whom i share things

[Amy]

I WOULD NEVER DO THAT, BUT what the point i was trying to make is lets say you see a scarf for sale, you dont have the pattern but you make one similar to it from your head, can you NOT sell it because you got inspired by the picture from someone else's pattern?

 

Basically, as long as you've just been inspired by another pattern, you should be okay. Meaning you put the other pattern/photo away, and then sit down with hook and yarn, paper and pencil, and create something of your own.

 

If you sat down with the picture and attempted to make a replica that was as close to the original as possible, then I personally think there's a problem. Whether it's a copyright issue is beside the point for me; at that point, it's become deliberate copying.

 

Of course, a lot also depends on how unique was the original item. If it was nothing more than a shell scarf, that was 6 shells wide and 60 rows long, nobody can claim exclusive use of shells in a scarf in that configuration. However, if it was an afghan that used a bunch of really intricate cabling techniques and took a lot of imagination to come up with the whole concept, then copying would really feel wrong.

 

People write patterns for very basic things all the time, which definitely fills a need for those people who just aren't comfortable experimenting to come up with their own pattern, even for things that are very simple. But that doesn't mean they can own the exclusive rights to that basic thing, since stitch patterns are not copyrightable to the extent that others are prevented from using that stitch pattern however they wish. (Although somebody's specific wording and photos used to describe the stitch pattern are copyrightable only to the extent that a copy of those instructions cannot be distributed by others without permission.)

[IamJolyn]

As a non-designer, I would not prolly buy a pattern if it restricted me on selling the finished product -however- if I loved it enough, or had it in mind for a gift . . . then who knows? *smiles* I am very careful on the free patterns (and paid for as well) i pick up, to look at the copywrite and file it under a special folder if I can do what i wish with the finished or only locally etc, so I don't make a mistake. I am slowly getting set up to sell on etsy and do local craft shows etc, so I would rather not buy a pattern that i couldn't use in selling what I make.

 

I am not saying that I don't repect and understand why those restrictions are there And I will always do my best to honor them. Just offering my view, as one who buys patterns.

[Amy]

A

I am not saying that I don't repect and understand why those restrictions are there And I will always do my best to honor them. Just offering my view, as one who buys patterns.

 

Sounds like you're doing things the way we like to see them being done.

 

There are some patterns out there that are very unique that you wouldn't be able to find a replacement for. But for many things, you can find a number of patterns that are similar enough that it really wouldn't matter which of them you chose to use. When that happens, you can just browse through all of them to see if there's one that the designer/publisher doesn't care if it's used to make finished items for sale.

[RoseRed]

I think Amy summed up the 'inspired by' thing pretty well. I think that falls under not being able to copyright an idea.

 

crochetaholic - I never assumed that you would use someone elses pattern as your own. Aggie May also like to keep control of her round ripple pattern. She won't post it and likes to know who wants to make it so she'll pm it to people.

 

It's so interesting to me how many different ways there is to look at something.

 

Here's a question - can you change the terms of use later? I know that you cannot make them more restrictive but can you make them less restrictive later on?

 

If I was to change my mind about selling finished products online - would I legally be able to go back and change the terms of use in the copyright?

[Chiscrochetcrazy]

This whole thread makes me feel like I'm unreasonable as a designer it completely bums me out It's not like I'm being selfish I just chose to make extra money off my own designs.

[annmcc1976]

This whole thread makes me feel like I'm unreasonable as a designer it completely bum me out

 

 

awwww Dont feel that way. everyone who designs as the rite to do as they wish and request what they wish done with their patterns

[Amy]

Here's a question - can you change the terms of use later? I know that you cannot make them more restrictive but can you make them less restrictive later on?

 

If I was to change my mind about selling finished products online - would I legally be able to go back and change the terms of use in the copyright?

 

Yes, you can absolutely change your terms of use.

 

If you wanted to go less restrictive, you can make that retroactive to all your patterns, no matter when the person obtained the pattern.

 

If you wanted to go more restrictive, you couldn't add additional restrictive terms to patterns that had already been purchased or downloaded for free. But you could add new restrictions that applied to all patterns purchased or downloaded after a specific date, as long as everyone knew about the new terms before they purchased or downloaded the pattern.

 

Of course, that could get pretty confusing. So while that option is technically possible, I wouldn't recommend doing it, just because of all the headaches it could involve.

[annmcc1976]

This whole thread makes me feel like I'm unreasonable as a designer it completely bums me out It's not like I'm being selfish I just chose to make extra money off my own designs.

 

I think Amy summed up the 'inspired by' thing pretty well. I think that falls under not being able to copyright an idea.

 

crochetaholic - I never assumed that you would use someone elses pattern as your own. Aggie May also like to keep control of her round ripple pattern. She won't post it and likes to know who wants to make it so she'll pm it to people.

 

It's so interesting to me how many different ways there is to look at something.

 

Here's a question - can you change the terms of use later? I know that you cannot make them more restrictive but can you make them less restrictive later on?

 

If I was to change my mind about selling finished products online - would I legally be able to go back and change the terms of use in the copyright?

 

 

I don't see why not. it's your pattern to do what you wish with. if you wish to change the terms to NO selling. then that's your rite.. IMO. or if you wish to change it that you do not care what is done with the finish work. then go for it

 

 

I am like the one above said.. I'm tryin my best to find patterns to use that say that i can do what i wish with the finish work. im fixin to start makin for craft and flea markets.

 

and reserve the restricted stuff for them people i make gifts for.. cause i sure can't aford to make every single pice of my work for nothing.

[Chiscrochetcrazy]

awwww Dont feel that way. everyone who designs as the rite to do as they wish and request what they wish done with their patterns

 

Thank you I do not restrict people who want to sell at craft fairs etc.. It's just the online that I ask not be done because I sell them myself online.

[Amy]

This whole thread makes me feel like I'm unreasonable as a designer it completely bums me out It's not like I'm being selfish I just chose to make extra money off my own designs.

 

Don't worry, you're not the only designer who has made this choice. Interweave Press has made this same choice regarding patterns published in their magazines and books. Other indie designers (Jennifer Hansen to Stitch Diva Studios, for example) have as well. You're in good company, and you're not alone.

 

There are also other designers who have made the choice to freely allow sales of items made from their patterns. Then there are those who are okay with local sales but not online sales. Designers fall everywhere on the spectrum with this.

 

When you start hearing from consumers on the subject, especially consumers who want to sell finished items, you're obviously going to hear that they would prefer to be allowed to sell their finished items without restraint. On other forums, I've seen consumers make some pretty ugly comments about designers with restrictive terms. I've also seen some designers make ugly comments about consumers who want to use their patterns to make items for sale. But we aren't going to allow that to happen here.

 

We can discuss the issue while being respectful of everyone, no matter what decision they've made regarding their patterns. You might hear from people who disagree with your choices, and you might hear from people who agree with your choices.

 

I think it's important for designers and pattern publishers to know there is a significant portion of the crocheting population (and it seems to be growing) that doesn't like restrictive terms on patterns. Hopefully, these people follow the designer's wishes, and simply choose to use other patterns with less restrictive terms.

 

But designers do need to know that restrictive terms may be costing them pattern sales. Each designer's business is different. Some may decide those lost pattern sales are offset by other benefits they receive from the restrictive terms, so they keep their terms in place. Others may decide that they'd rather sell more patterns, so they loosen their restrictions. What works for one business may be totally different from what works for another business.

 

Each designer has to make the choice that works best for them, then be confident in that decision.

[Chiscrochetcrazy]

If I was one of those sellers that went online long ago and had as many sales as some of them had it might be different.Some designers have sold thousands of patterns and still sell many per day. There's a lot of competition and a girl needs the extra $ I have people ask me if they can sell online and I tell the straight up and if I lose a sale then that's ok. I have never said a bad word about people who want to sell items they make why would as long as they do so with someone else's pattern and it's allowed why should it bother me.And I have made some exceptions when some people have asked me because there are some patterns I've designed that I chose not to make to sell myself. I'm a reasonable person

[Amy]

Alisha, I hope you don't think I thought *you* might say something ugly about a consumer. I meant to reassure you that I wasn't going to let anybody be mean to you if they disagreed with your choice!

 

It sounds like you've given thought to all the things you need to consider, and you've made the decision that you feel is best for your business. It's working for you, so feel confident in what you're doing.

[Chiscrochetcrazy]

Oh no Amy I did not think that And I appreciate you saying that

 

The truth is I do hold my designs close to my heart and I don't see how that is a bad thing.I love designing and especially toys/ami. I treat every sale as a compliment and I am thankful for my customers.I consider what I design a part of me that will be here long after I am.

[IamJolyn]

This is a very interesting thread, and I am glad it is being talked about. I was pretty bummed when I read a pattern after I had got it about the restrictive selling (totally my fault for not checking it first!) But it is really good to know the reasons behind the designers restrictions (ie, selling the finished themselves) And I think it is a fair trade off to only restrict the sales online, letting us sell locally or craft shows. Anyway, it is very good to hear all sides of things.

[Krakovianka]

I appreciate this discussion, too, because there is SO much misinformation out there. Really looking carefully at the laws, and being informed about the limitations of copyright, as well the rights attached to it, is important.

 

Alisha, I think it's fine for a designer to ask anything they want to--but *asking* is one thing, and demanding is another. In some cases (such as for clothing), the law doesn't give a copyright-owner any right to make such demands. For me, the terms of use should be couched in language that expresses the designer's wishes, while respecting the fact that it takes materials, time, talent, and skill to make something, and not everyone can do it. It's also not unreasonable or selfish (and certainly not theft) to want to sell something that you have used your time and skill to make.

 

So it isn't just what you say, it's how you say it. (I haven't seen your terms of use, so this isn't personally about you. )

 

I'm really, really happy to see a civil discussion on this topic here. I hope it will be an educational thread for everyone. For the record, I've never sold anything I crocheted, so I have no vested interest in having freedom to sell what I make. I'm more interested in crochet as a craft, both traditional and contemporary, that links us from past crocheters to future ones. I think community and continuity is important--crocheting isn't always fashionable, as it is right now.

 

 

All information in this post is my own opinion, based on my personal research. By all means, consult a lawyer. Sometimes the copyright office will answer questions, although only general ones, not about specific patterns.