Copyright ?

[melindascrochetbits]

Not sure if this is where I should be posting but I was wondering is shapes in general can/are protected by copyright.

 

For example:

 

You sit down and crochet a shape of your choice and one day you run across a free pattern that looks like yours even though you did not follow any pattern.

 

Is this copyright infringement?

 

I ask because I take this very personal and trying to design patterns myself,I do not want to step on anyones toes. Designing patterns is very hard work!

 

 

This post is not meant to upset anyone in no way,shape or form. I just need to know so I can decide if I am going to continue crocheting or not!

 

Also any links related to crochet would also be helpful!

 

Thanks!

[DebraKay]

A shape itself like square, stars, octagons, etc. cannot be copyrighted. I am not speaking from a legal POV but a logical one. If you come up with one all on your own, it is bound to have a little different number of stitches, type of stitches, striping sequence, etc.

 

There are several versions of the round ripples. Sometimes members may associate a certain number of star points with a certain designer but there are bound to be others that come up with the same number of star points and lots who will make round ripples. With so many patterns now available online and in books, I think it is hard to come up with a truly original idea. I have seen a couple of toally new ideas in a pattern in the past couple of years, but the others are really all versions of something done before. We talked on another thread about stitches and how the stitch itself cannot be copyrighted. So, a pattern that is done all in one stitch is bound to have been replicated sometime, somewhere.

 

I think you just have to go into it with an honest heart. If you came up with the pattern without ever seeing the other person's design and there are enough differences don't worry. Even if you have never seen another's design, if it is exactly the same, then the person who first put it in print/computerized or paper, will hold the copyright and the newer version can be made to stop. As for how many differences there have to be ..... I think only a lawyer or maybe the judge if it came to it, could tell you that for sure.

 

Copyrights on creative things like crochet patterns are difficult to give absolutes. I think it is pretty much a case by case issue. Since you have obviously made a pattern that someone mistook for anothers (I saw the other thread)....why not let the other designer know that you made this one unaware of hers and see if there is any problem. There probably is not, especially if she has offered her pattern for free anyway. Have you actually seen her pattern now and looked to see the differences? May be so many differences in stitches, you have an obvious different pattern.

 

Again, not a legal perspective, just a logical one. (And those two are not always the same -- even though they should be. )

 

BTW -- no matter how the conscensus goes....I don't think you should be thinking about giving up crocheting.... that would be a little over the top.

[magiccrochetfan]

here is an informative thread on the subject http://www.crochetville.org/forum/showthread.php?t=100376

[melindascrochetbits]

thanks for the replies but I take this kind of thing very personal because I do not believe in breaking laws nor do I know where to find the other pattern. Forgive me but as hard as it is to type it seems easier to give up crocheting (although that is what has kept my hubby innone piece) lol, than to go through this!

[Katchkan]

If you created something without never seeing the other pattern. If it is written in your own words. Then it is your's. Regardless if someone else had the same idea. Even if they created it before you. How you word things and how they word things will be different.

I never cruise the net or even look through books and magazines. That way I know my ideas are my own. I am very careful that my ideas originate with me myself and I, and nowhere else.

Don't let something like this make you quit crocheting. It just isn't worth it. You know in your heart of hearts if the design is your own.

I do suggest that you document your process when creating. I keep all my sketches and I document when I make revisions on a design as I go.

[DebraKay]

If you created something without never seeing the other pattern. If it is written in your own words. Then it is your's. Regardless if someone else had the same idea. Even if they created it before you. How you word things and how they word things will be different.

.

 

Don't think that is quite right. I had to sit through a copyright course to write training manuals. So I do have some background just not anything to take to court. The whole reason for a copyright is so the first one with the idea has the rights to it. If you come up with the same idea later, even if you never saw the first one, it is "so sorry" first one with the copyright is the one with the rights. Wording different to get to the same result won't do it -- has to be a different result. Otherwise a copyright would be worthless as everyone could say they had not seen the first one.

 

Another way to look at it is that not only the pattern verbage is copyrighted but the finished product as well. That is why even with different wording, if the end result is the same, then the copyright has been infringed upon. Now if the stitches are different, then it is a different product, and again, I will bow out on saying how many changes need to be noticed before it is not a copyright violation. I have asked the question myself and short of going to court do not think there is a set answer.

 

It seems obvious to me the person starting the thread has not copied anything. If no one has challenged on it that it is someone else's pattern, I don't see why they are getting so upset. It looked like in the other thread, someone just thought it was another's pattern -- no accusation of copying was done that I saw. So, my advice to the OP is to just carry on with your pattern. If someone does think it is too similar to their own, then they, themself can take it up with you. Chances are there are going to be enough differences that there is no problem. No reason to be so sensitive over someone just mistaking your pattern for anothers.

[RoseRed]

I can't agree with that. You can't copyright and 'idea'. If ideas were copyrighted then you wouldn't have been able to write a training manual. The idea was already thought of.

 

Copyright law for the written word and artforms are slightly different.

 

If someone could copyright the idea of crocheting in a circle then Katchcan wouldn't be able to make any doily's that are round regardless of how intricate they are.

 

Ideas are different than patterns. Finished products fall into derivative works.

 

It's the same as 'you can't copyright a stitch, only your wording on how to create it'. You can't copyright a shape - only your directions on how to make it.

[Amy]

Don't think that is quite right. I had to sit through a copyright course to write training manuals. So I do have some background just not anything to take to court. The whole reason for a copyright is so the first one with the idea has the rights to it. If you come up with the same idea later, even if you never saw the first one, it is "so sorry" first one with the copyright is the one with the rights. Wording different to get to the same result won't do it -- has to be a different result. Otherwise a copyright would be worthless as everyone could say they had not seen the first one.

 

Another way to look at it is that not only the pattern verbage is copyrighted but the finished product as well. That is why even with different wording, if the end result is the same, then the copyright has been infringed upon. Now if the stitches are different, then it is a different product, and again, I will bow out on saying how many changes need to be noticed before it is not a copyright violation. I have asked the question myself and short of going to court do not think there is a set answer.

 

It seems obvious to me the person starting the thread has not copied anything. If no one has challenged on it that it is someone else's pattern, I don't see why they are getting so upset. It looked like in the other thread, someone just thought it was another's pattern -- no accusation of copying was done that I saw. So, my advice to the OP is to just carry on with your pattern. If someone does think it is too similar to their own, then they, themself can take it up with you. Chances are there are going to be enough differences that there is no problem. No reason to be so sensitive over someone just mistaking your pattern for anothers.

 

I'm sorry, but it doesn't quite work this way with patterns and "useful items." For more information, I suggest people go directly to the US Copyright Office website.

 

It is perfectly possible for two people to come up with very similar ideas for a pattern, with neither person having seen the other's work. Each person is legally entitled to write up their own pattern, using their own words and photos, and distribute that pattern as they see fit. Each person's work is copyrighted.

 

The copyright protection accorded means that nobody can distribute copies of those patterns without permission of the copyright holder. Because of the way copyright law applies to useful items (such as clothing, for example), it may even be legal to write your own pattern based on a pattern that you've seen. For example, if you saw a pattern for a short sleeve v-neck fitted pullover sweater in shell stitch, you could go write your own pattern using the original pattern as inspiration. You could use the picture to attempt to write your own pattern that would look as close as possible to the original, as long as you didn't copy the actual written instructions or very closely model your own after them. It's the written instructions that can't be copied, not the concept of the general look and feel of the finished item, generally speaking. There may be some cases where closely copying the original would be considered copyright infringement. The opinion of an intellectual property attorney would be needed for any specific situation. I'm just speaking in generalities, and I am not giving legal advice, as I am not an attorney.

 

That said, while it may technically be legal in some cases to rip off another person's pattern by attempting to duplicate it, that doesn't mean it's actually ethical. It just isn't nice to take an existing pattern and try to create your own pattern for something that looks just like the original and then distribute your version of the pattern, taking credit for somebody else's original idea.

 

Yet again, though, fashion design is all about inspiration and taking one person's idea and coming up with your own new take on it. There's a difference between inspiration and copying. Each person has to decide for himself or herself which one they are doing.

 

Crochetville does have guidelines relating to this whole copying/inspiration issue. We do not allow posting of patterns that have been created with the intention of exactly or closely duplicating an existing copyrighted pattern. We do allow posting of a pattern that was made using another pattern as a source of inspiration: good guideline here would be that you looked at the original pattern, put it away, then developed something completely on your own. We also can allow posting of two very similar patterns, in the event that the second person claims that the pattern was their own original idea and they never saw the first pattern. In this case, it might be necessary for us to ask for some proof of how the second pattern was developed, so we can verify to the best of our ability that copyright infringement has not occurred.

 

For the record, if anybody ever thinks a pattern someone posts here violates their copyright, there are specific steps to take to report a claim of copyright infringement and request the infringing material be removed. We then work with both parties involved, as required by law, to resolve the issue. Here's a post with all the information about reporting copyright infringement. Whether a pattern is removed or not (temporarily or permanently) depends upon the responses taken by both parties. Depending on what either party does, there are certain things we are legally required to do by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

[DebraKay]

I had missed the replies to my post here so this is old but I think I still need to respond. First of all I never said a shape could be copyrighted -- of course not, same goes for a crochet stitch. Here is the Copyright law very specificProtection under this chapter shall not be available for a design that is — ....(1) not original; (2) staple or commonplace, such as a standard geometric figure, a familiar symbol, an emblem, or a motif, or another shape, pattern, or configuration which has become standard, common, prevalent, or ordinary;(3) different from a design excluded by paragraph (2) only in insignificant details or in elements which are variants commonly used in the relevant trades;..."

 

As far as derivative works, I think differently than you wrote Amy. For a good explanation, check out the US Copyright Office's explanation of derivative works here: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf. As you see it says that to be copyrightable under a derivative work, the new work "MUST DIFFER sufficiently from the original" and must contain a substantial amount of new material. So, copying even from memory of a picture, if the end result does not differ enough from the original, it is not a derivative -- it is a copy. Even then, only the new, added, or modified portions are copyrightable, not the original material. It also goes on to say that only the owner of the original copyright can make a new version, or give permision to someone to prepare a new version/derivative work. So, you can't just decide to make a derivative work of someone else's design. The Copyright law also says, "A design is “original” if it is the result of the designer's creative endeavor that provides a distinguishable variation over prior work pertaining to similar articles which is more than merely trivial and has not been copied from another source." So, I believe the idea that you can remember a project and write your own words to make virtually the same pattern, is not copyrightable as it is not original.

 

Here is another quote from the copyright law that makes it clear to me that the finished object is covered under the copyright and not just the pattern:

"Acts of Infringement. — Except as provided in subsection (b), it shall be infringement of the exclusive rights in a design protected under this chapter for any person, without the consent of the owner of the design, within the United States and during the term of such protection, to —

 

(1) make, have made, or import, for sale or for use in trade, any infringing article as defined in subsection (e); or

 

(2) sell or distribute for sale or for use in trade any such infringing article." and is further explained here, "Infringing Article Defined. — As used in this section, an “infringing article” is any article the design of which has been copied from a design protected under this chapter, without the consent of the owner of the protected design. An infringing article is not an illustration or picture of a protected design in an advertisement, book, periodical, newspaper, photograph, broadcast, motion picture, or similar medium. A design shall not be deemed to have been copied from a protected design if it is original and not substantially similar in appearance to a protected design." So if it looks enough like the copyrighted article it is an infringement.

 

There is much murky area -- for instance, the law says that you can NOT copyright a useful object like a dress. The pattern or the dress is not copyrightable, except for a part which could stand alone and is graphic rather than utilitarian. What I get from that part of the law is that you can jazz up a pattern and the embellishments that are not part of the "just cover the body" concept can be copyrighted, if that embellishment could be used by itself separately from the dress. The law also gives copyright protection with these words, "The designer or other owner of an original design of a useful article which makes the article attractive or distinctive in appearance to the purchasing or using public may secure the protection provided by this chapter upon complying with and subject to this chapter." I think almost any crocheted useful object is going to be distinctive and attractive.

 

 

I have also read that no pattern can be copyrighted. Example: http://www.*********.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns.shtml I think they are referring to this portion of the US Copyright Office material " In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." In this interpretation, it would be only the final result that could be copyrighted, and not the pattern, or explanation of steps to make it. I don't agree that none of the pattern can be copyrighted. Although they say no procedure, process, method of operation is copyrightable -- I believe that would relate to the actual stitches -- not the complete narrative for the whole project.

 

Seriously -- NONE of this makes a hill of beans. What it comes down to is what the court decides on the individual case at hand. Intent to defraud, for profit or not, subjective measure of sameness.....all go in to the decision. Basically people need to be honest. Do not copy someone else's design whether it is in your own words or not. Definately don't steal both their words and their design.

 

I definately recognize your right in this site ownership to decide which interpretation to use in keeping your site above board. Afterall, it is you that could potentially become a co-defendent if someone crosses the line and courts get involved. I am definately not arguing your interpretation for allowing material on your site. But I thought more of the actual law might be interesting to those thinking about making their own patterns, especially if they were intending to use a memory or derivative in their design.

Hope I explained this the way I intended, probably should not have written this at 3:30 am, but insomnia brings me to the forums.

[Amy]

When it comes to copyright law, it really doesn't matter at all what any of us think about it. What matters is what the lawyers say and what the lawyers think a judge might decide in a court case.

 

Anyone who has copyright questions about a specific pattern should first of all go directly to the US Copyright Office and read everything they have to say about copyright protection, including information about "useful articles" and "Fair Use." (Don't rely on just the quotes above; go read everything for yourself. Complete context matters.) If that doesn't answer your questions to your satisfaction, then you should seek the advice of an attorney for your individual situation. Do not rely on anything you read on the internet as official legal advice that would protect you in a court of law, whether or not it was written by an attorney. Most attorneys have a disclaimer at the bottom of what they've written that indicates their writing is opinion only and does not constitute legal advice of any kind.

 

Generally speaking, in most cases (because it seems sometimes like law is never really absolute), if you come up with an idea all on your own, sit down and write out your instructions without referencing any written pattern, have sufficient documentation to show you did it all yourself, then there shouldn't be an issue of infringement even if what you come up with looks pretty much like something somebody else came up with.

 

If you come up with a pattern by working closely off of somebody else's work, it's up to you and your conscience (and hopefully with consultation with either the original designer/publisher or your attorney) whether it's a

good thing to distribute your new pattern and claim it as your own work.

 

I'm going to close this thread for discussion now as the original questions have been answered.

 

And again, Crochetville's forum guidelines that state what we allow to be posted here, are just that: forum guidelines. They are not law. They aren't enforceable anywhere but here at Crochetville.